Latest / New Worlder / Episode #101: Bryan Ford

Transcript

Episode #101: Bryan Ford · New Worlder

• 0:00
  This is the New Worlder podcast,
• 0:03
  and I am one of your hosts,
• 0:04
  Nicholas Gill.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: Co-host Juliana Duque will be joining shortly.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: Today, we are speaking with Brian Ford.
• 0:13
  He is the author of the new book,
• 0:15
  Pan y Dulce,
• 0:17
  the Latin American baking book.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_02: Brian is a baker,
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: and a very good one,
• 0:21
  and I think he's looking at Latin American breads unlike anyone
• 0:25
  else right now.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: His first book,
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: New World Sourdough,
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: released right in the middle of the pandemic,
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: was a giant hit,
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: and it's one of my most used baking books.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's good practical advice at making better sourdough,
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: and as I mentioned in the conversation,
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: his persona makes it less intimidating.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: At least for me.
• 0:45
  I find bread intimidating sometimes because it takes me a while
• 0:48
  to make it,
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: and I find it easy to mess up,
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: especially when I first started.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: The new book,
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: Pan y Dulce,
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: goes deep into the traditional breads of Latin America,
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: and I'm very excited to use it.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: There are recipes for things like Peruvian panchuta,
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: pizza-like fugazetas from Argentina,
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: cassava breads,
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: and other types of baked goods that don't get much attention stateside.
• 1:13
  A lot of these traditional breads are rarely made with wild
• 1:16
  yeast these days,
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: but he includes sourdough options for them.
• 1:20
  I'm especially excited to test this out as so many of these
• 1:23
  breads have so much
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: potential to be made in this way.
• 1:26
  Ford was born in the Bronx to Honduran immigrant parents and
• 1:31
  raised in New Orleans.
• 1:33
  He was an accountant that liked baking and started a wholesale
• 1:39
  bread business out
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: of it on the side.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: When he made a Honduran pan de coco at his mother's request,
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: his blog,
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: Artisan Brian,
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: suddenly exploded.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: He's been all over the place the last few years.
• 1:53
  He is the host of the Magnolia Network's Baked in Tradition and
• 1:58
  The Artisan's Kitchen,
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: and you've probably seen him on other shows on Netflix and elsewhere.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: Aside of the new book,
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: Pan y Dulce,
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: he also launched a Substack newsletter last year,
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: also under the name Artisan Brian.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: and despite his growing popularity,
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: he's not afraid to talk about things like slavery and colonialism,
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: which I find refreshing.
• 2:22
  It seems like you are supposed to ignore history completely if
• 2:25
  you gain some
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: mainstream traction.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: These things have had an obvious impact on bread-making in Latin America,
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: so of course he,
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: as in Afro-Hondoran,
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: acknowledges them right in the first pages of the new book.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: He does it in a way that still celebrates the recipes,
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: though some editors might be scared away by it.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: I personally appreciate the way he does it.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: It would be stranger to me if he didn't mention these things.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: So please, show your support and go out and buy the book.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: And if you haven't subscribed to my newsletter,
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: just go to newworlder.com or search for New Worlder on Substack.
• 3:05
  It's free to subscribe,
• 3:06
  though paid subscribers get access to all of the content and archives.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: Again, newworlder.com.
• 3:12
  Also look for my books,
• 3:14
  such as the Latin American Cookbook,
• 3:16
  at bookstores everywhere.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: And check out the New Worlder YouTube channel.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: We have full video episodes there,
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: including this one,
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: as well as some clips and other video content.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: Just go to youtube.com slash newworlder.com.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: And please subscribe, like us, and share us.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: Every little bit helps this podcast get listened to.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: Please enjoy the show.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, Brian.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: How's it going?
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_03: What's going on, Nick?
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for having me on here, man.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_03: Good to see you.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, Brian.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, Juliana.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for coming.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: It was just a few weeks ago, right?
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: When I saw you in Queens.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you did the huge honor of...
• 4:46
  Rather,
• 4:46
  I was honored to have you do a talk with me at the World's
• 4:50
  Borough for my book.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_03: And it was really great to meet you in person.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, it was finally good to meet you in person.
• 4:56
  We've been chatting,
• 4:57
  you know,
• 4:58
  DMing for probably years,
• 5:00
  probably five years.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's been years.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, so you were doing a talk for your new book, Pan, Eat Dulce.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: And you invited me to come and we chatted and...
• 5:14
  I wasn't sure what everyone was expecting because we didn't
• 5:17
  really plan anything.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: But we just talked a lot about publishing.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: Did you get any feedback?
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: Did the people in attendance appreciate that?
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_03: No, of course.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_03: I think people these days appreciate real, just unscripted conversation.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think...
• 5:38
  I think we were speaking our minds at the time,
• 5:40
  and I think it was phenomenal.
• 5:41
  I think a lot of people enjoyed hearing some of the kind of
• 5:46
  behind the scenes of
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_03: what it takes to do these things that we do.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that, yeah, they were very much excited to
• 5:53
  to be there for sure okay good because we're being very honest
• 5:57
  and like i was
• 5:57
  telling things about publishing i've never told anyone i don't
• 6:00
  think and you got to
• 6:01
  know i mean i you know at the end of the day if we don't if we
• 6:05
  don't speak our
• 6:07
  small truth you know uh you know what's the point so i think
• 6:11
  it's important to just
• 6:13
  speak free and just be raw you know what i'm saying so yes
• 6:17
  that's the energy
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: And that bookstore is great, by the way.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: The World's Borough Bookshop, Jackson Heights, Queens.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's all Latino...
• 6:27
  yeah yeah it's incredible it's all latino no it's all just uh
• 6:31
  yeah i mean just just
• 6:33
  show you know just just highlighting the work of people of
• 6:36
  color highlighting the
• 6:37
  the you know bringing us to the forefront and uh you know
• 6:41
  trying to to get us in as
• 6:43
  many people's uh hands as possible our books rather not us not
• 6:48
  us as people yeah
• 6:50
  yeah yeah and it was it was good like they have a lot of um
• 6:53
  like indie publishers
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: too um
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: Gosh, hold on one second.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: You're good.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's childcare.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_03: I'm doing it as we are.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, man, listen.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_03: I understand, or I will understand soon.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: So you're having a baby soon.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: That's going to be a big deal.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: Julie has a child as well.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: Hers is grown up, though.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: But it's still a priority.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_03: Signing up for the lifelong commitment, right?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: The longest.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_03: No, I'm excited.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_03: I don't even know what to expect.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_03: I don't even know.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_03: I don't even know.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_03: I have no idea.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_03: But, you know, I'm excited.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: No, I mean, I don't think there is a way to prepare for it.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 7:49
  I think the only thing I'm doing to prepare is like eating a
• 7:53
  high fiber diet and
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_03: trying to exercise and drink water and shit.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_03: That's a good way of preparing for real.
• 7:58
  I'm like,
• 7:59
  honestly,
• 8:00
  I'm like,
• 8:00
  man,
• 8:00
  maybe,
• 8:01
  maybe the Pinot Noir needs to take a break.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_03: Like maybe, maybe I need to drink like water.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_03: Like I don't know.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think the wine helps here and there.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: Fair enough.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: Once the baby comes, it's, you know, like it, it,
• 8:15
  It'll relax you a bit because there are moments,
• 8:18
  at least for me,
• 8:19
  with both of my kids.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_03: No, listen.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I hear it.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_03: I hear you, man.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_03: I hear that.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_03: But we'll see.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_03: We'll see.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: And my one advice is just use coconut oil for everything.
• 8:31
  Like anything the baby has,
• 8:33
  any rash or things,
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  all the creams and shit,
• 8:35
  they don't work.
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  SPEAKER_02: Just coconut oil works on everything.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: Even olive oil, as they do in Greece.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, wow.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: Olive oil, too.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: But I found coconut oil is really good.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: And then you can...
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: And you can bake with it.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I got plenty of that stocked up.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_03: So you ain't got to tell me twice to use coconuts, man.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: All right, yeah.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: So this book, it's great.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I haven't cooked anything with it yet.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: No, no pressure.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I'm going to make Fugazeta this weekend.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_03: There you go.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm glad you have Argentine pizzas in this.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's such like an overlooked...
• 9:17
  kind of category julie do you know much about like pizzas in
• 9:21
  argentina yeah i mean
• 9:26
  i i know that in a way obviously they follow the italian uh uh
• 9:33
  heritage right
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: because of the immigration there but
• 9:38
  But I think at this point,
• 9:40
  there is a category of Argentinian pizzas that is unique.
• 9:46
  And they have like these favorite ones with onions and the ones
• 9:50
  without tomato sauce.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's also about the places,
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: how they became a place of gathering like pubs,
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: bars,
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: coffee shops.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think there isn't a...
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's a category on its sound as a place of gathering,
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: apart from,
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: how many pizzas,
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: flavors.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, they're great.
• 10:14
  Like,
• 10:14
  the fuga zeta,
• 10:15
  like,
• 10:15
  the onions and cheese and,
• 10:17
  like,
• 10:17
  these big gooey things.
• 10:20
  Like,
• 10:20
  I still think about,
• 10:22
  like,
• 10:22
  going to La Mazeta in Buenos Aires and,
• 10:27
  like,
• 10:27
  I was...
• 10:28
  totally full from the night before and I just like I went there
• 10:32
  before lunch
• 10:33
  somewhere else because it was the only time I had to like to
• 10:35
  squeeze it in and I
• 10:37
  got like and you could only buy like the whole thing so I
• 10:40
  bought this giant like
• 10:41
  box it probably weighed like four kilos of just like cheese and
• 10:46
  onions and dough
• 10:47
  you know like I brought it with me to the next lunch and it was
• 10:50
  just like dripping
• 10:51
  with grease and stuff but it was like that's what I'm talking
• 10:53
  about but it was so
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: fucking awesome and I can't believe
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's not a thing in New York yet.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_03: There's someone doing it.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_03: It's my homie, OG Papa Fern, man.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_03: Fernando, man.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_03: He's a beast.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_03: And he does some really exceptional pop-ups all over the city.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_03: He collaborates with different pizzerias.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_03: And you got to look him up, man.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_03: His videos are crazy.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:20
  I was about to say there was one guy in the city that's been
• 11:23
  doing pop-ups.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: That's probably the guy.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_03: It's probably the guy.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_03: He is the guy.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_03: I think like...
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_03: New York is a particular place when it comes to pizza.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_03: I think there's so many opinions about pizza.
• 11:37
  I think the first thing people say is typically,
• 11:42
  that's not a pizza or some shit like that.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_03: I did some... What the hell was it called?
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_03: I forgot what it was called.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_03: Complex Pizza Wars or some YouTube show or something.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_03: I went on there.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_03: I made a Fugazetta.
• 11:58
  And I remember the team that was trying it,
• 12:01
  they just were like not convinced.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_03: They were like OG Brooklyn types,
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_03: like pizzeria owners,
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_03: and they were just not convinced it was a pizza.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that that's the uphill battle.
• 12:14
  And that's also part of the whole concept of doing a book like
• 12:17
  Pani Dulce.
• 12:18
  It's like fighting that uphill battle to get recognition for
• 12:23
  what we make in Latino America.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_03: It's like...
• 12:26
  You have this breadth of baked goods and foods that are derived
• 12:32
  from indigenous traditions,
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_03: European traditions,
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_03: colonist traditions,
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_03: enslaved people's traditions.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_03: All kinds of traditions are wrapped up into the baked goods and foods.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yet it's like seen as like a lesser class than European products.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's kind of ironic because,
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_03: for example,
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_03: like pastry was potentially invented in Egypt or,
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_03: it's like you don't have they don't have they don't have a real claim on.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_03: baking and bread.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, bread probably comes from the Fertile Crescent, right?
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_03: So it's like, let's forget about how we got implanted with
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_03: probably African tradition.
• 13:22
  But let's like minimize what we did in the Americas because
• 13:28
  it's not that it's not great.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_03: That's not good.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_03: That's nothing.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_03: That's not real.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_03: You know, so that's that's kind of it almost like I've been
• 13:37
  Because it took so long to make this book and it's like all I
• 13:40
  think about,
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_03: it's all I do,
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: it's all I write about.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, am I burning myself out?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just like, fuck, can I just bake?
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_03: Can I just bake a loaf of bread without digging up my ancestral trauma?
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_03: Should I just forget about it all?
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_02: Too late.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: One of the notes I have before this interview and before we did our talk
• 14:07
  Was that I like that you have a bread book that's personal and
• 14:14
  it's about you.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: New World Sourdough is,
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: it's as much you as it is like a,
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: culinary trend,
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's your personal approach to these breads,
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: which obviously carried through in this book.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: But a lot of like bread books I read, they seem so...
• 14:38
  technical and it makes it intimidating to me you know like i
• 14:43
  again like if you're
• 14:44
  baking all the time and you want to get you know be a perfect
• 14:48
  bread maker you know
• 14:50
  all the time and that but i'm not gonna be that like i just i
• 14:55
  want to make some
• 14:56
  breads you know once twice a week maybe like have a nice
• 15:02
  sourdough every week that
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: i make
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: And just supplement my bread intake that way.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: But it seems so intimidating sometimes.
• 15:13
  Bread's so technical and it's so precise that I appreciate that
• 15:20
  I see the person
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: behind it,
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: even though I know you now.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_02: But even before that,
• 15:25
  I appreciate there was a connection to a real person and not
• 15:29
  just like some lab
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: somewhere that was like a testing facility.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I appreciate that.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's interesting.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_03: It's true that this idea that Brett is technical is
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_03: I think it kind of cracks me up.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, like, I've... It's bread.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_03: It's like... It's bread, dude.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_03: It's bread.
• 15:56
  It's like one of the most...
• 15:57
  It's one of the oldest forms of nourishment that's ever existed.
• 16:01
  It's one of the most quintessential and classic things that's
• 16:04
  ever been consumed.
• 16:05
  And it's been consumed for thousands and thousands and
• 16:08
  thousands of years in
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_03: different shapes and sizes.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, I think...
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: Obviously,
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: as a professional baker,
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_03: or at least at the point when I was baking professionally,
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_03: bagel shops,
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_03: I've worked in,
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_03: overnight wholesale Italian bread production.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_03: I've I've run pizzerias.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_03: I've run Italian restaurant group bread production.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_03: I know, you know, I know how to use all the ovens and everything.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_03: I, of course, would.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_03: Being a bread baker as a profession is a very respectable profession.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_03: It's a very labor intensive, skill intensive.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_03: It's not easy.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_03: You can't just overnight go be a bread baker and run a production.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_03: That is technical.
• 16:54
  I think being a baker in a bakery production is incredibly
• 16:57
  technical and an
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_03: incredible achievement,
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_03: and it's brutal.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: But baking a loaf of bread at home, I don't think is technical.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's the easiest thing you could ever do.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_03: It's three ingredients.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_03: You put it in the oven and you take it out.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_03: And at the end of the day,
• 17:14
  I think a little bit of the social media consumption has
• 17:19
  created the idea that you
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_03: need this perfect loaf or that your crumb has to look a certain way.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_03: And that's great.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_03: Of course, you want to...
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_03: bake a loaf that opens up and,
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_03: but people as like humans,
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_03: human beings,
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_03: we've been eating bread for so long that it's never needed to be perfect.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_03: This is a new, this is a new, this is, it's, can I curse on this?
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_03: I was just going to say it was bullshit.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_03: I wasn't trying to say anything.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_03: it's,
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_03: it's,
• 17:47
  but it doesn't make sense that all of a sudden I'd say within
• 17:50
  the past 10 years,
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_03: um,
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know, maybe 20.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_03: That all of a sudden bread needs to be this perfect scientific method.
• 18:00
  And if you don't understand all these words that you won't be
• 18:04
  able to make a loaf
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_03: of bread at your house.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what are you talking about, bro?
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_03: We've been making bread at home for years.
• 18:10
  years i know like but but then you see like modernist baking or
• 18:14
  whatever and it's
• 18:15
  like this this giant thing and it's like i just see the the
• 18:18
  books like i don't even
• 18:20
  have to open them and it's just like fuck no i'm just like i'll
• 18:23
  just buy you know
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_03: it's just so intimidating yeah i'm over complicated
• 18:29
  yeah i mean i'm not look i think uh i you know i have a
• 18:34
  different style other
• 18:36
  authors will have a different style other bakers have a
• 18:38
  different style um so i you
• 18:40
  know i i i have books like ken forkish uh what's flour water
• 18:44
  salt yeast that's a
• 18:45
  staple book i have on my shelf i used to use that book a long
• 18:48
  time ago and it was
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_03: great and and one could say it's technical you know i have uh
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_03: a book by Mauricio called The Perfect Loaf.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_03: He's a really cool sourdough blog guy.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_03: And it's, you know, as we talk, quote unquote, technical.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it's exceptional work.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's great work.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's just a different style.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you know, that's all.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: Also, there is a different way of looking at it, I think.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like both can be technical if you want,
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: but there is a difference between professional and domestic.
• 19:21
  And domestic follows different rules and you can get technical
• 19:26
  with experience,
• 19:27
  but you cannot apply the same standard or the same rules or
• 19:31
  even the same instructions.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's when things become overcomplicated,
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: intimidating,
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: and they act counterproductive because people don't want to bake anymore.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I think...
• 19:47
  it's important to keep this uh difference in mind domestic not
• 19:52
  the same as
• 19:52
  professional and you can get a lot of experience in both it's
• 19:56
  just different a
• 19:57
  different way a different feeling a different connection with
• 20:00
  it yeah and just to
• 20:02
  be clear i'm not saying like your book is like this like
• 20:05
  lowbrow non-technical
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: thing
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm saying it's just as technical as the other ones.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: The recipes are probably this similar format.
• 20:14
  It's just presented in a way that feels approachable and it
• 20:18
  feels personal that I'm
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: not so intimidated like I am when I look at modernism.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no.
• 20:26
  And listen,
• 20:26
  you don't have to clarify at all because this is the intention
• 20:30
  of my style.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_03: I,
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_03: I intentionally don't use words like auto lease when I write because if,
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 20:36
  if I'm in bakery production and I hire a baker and I tell them
• 20:39
  to go auto lease the mix,
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_03: I would I would hope that he knows what I'm talking about because,
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_03: we're in a professional setting.
• 20:44
  But I don't you know,
• 20:45
  I think a word like that could just scare people away.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_03: They're like, well, what the hell is auto?
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_03: You know, what if they do?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, simple.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_03: I like to keep it simple and I like to just
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_03: let people know that they're going to succeed at the end of the day.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_03: And,
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: of course,
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: there's techniques in my book,
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_03: there's so much technique in the book,
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_03: but I just want it to appear to people as if it's something achievable,
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_03: something that can be fun,
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_03: something that will help nourish their family and communities,
• 21:12
  because I think that baking at its core is about nourishing
• 21:16
  your family and your
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_03: community and enjoyment and
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_03: enjoying the process, the labor of love.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_03: That's why my style is the way it is.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_03: That's not something I shy away from.
• 21:28
  I'm not trying to be the technical dude with the desired dough
• 21:31
  temperature of 78 degrees.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_03: I know I could tell you to take a thermometer to your dough,
• 21:39
  but I don't see it as something that's really that critical
• 21:42
  when you're at home
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_03: just trying to make a couple loaves of bread.
• 21:47
  One thing I really appreciate in this new book is that you do
• 21:54
  have sourdough
• 21:56
  performance in all of the recipes because I hardly ever see
• 22:01
  these recipes with
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: natural yeast.
• 22:04
  Like in Latin America,
• 22:05
  it's like they've just been reduced to the basic production.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: And there are these wonderful breads,
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: these great textures all over the place,
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: from Chile to Peru to Ecuador to Brazil.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: And they just they lack flavor sometimes.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 22:25
  I think that the biggest thing that I've noticed in traveling
• 22:30
  in Latino America is
• 22:31
  not that people don't use natural leavening techniques as much
• 22:38
  as they are not
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_03: really able to attain high quality flour.
• 22:45
  And and then,
• 22:47
  you know,
• 22:48
  a lot of industrialized baking that happens in Latino America.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_03: It's just like industrialized baking in the United States.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_03: In my opinion, it's no different.
• 22:57
  Like when you're in the US,
• 22:59
  you got to you got to look up where to go get good bread.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_03: You can't just assume there will be good bread.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_03: You can't go to a supermarket and get bread and it's good.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_03: All supermarket bread is terrible for you.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_03: Most bakeries,
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_03: and this is just a blanket statement,
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_03: it's not specific to any part of the country,
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_03: but most bakeries are not making things at a level where they're
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_03: fermenting things the right way,
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_03: using whole grains,
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_03: using regional grains,
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_03: you got to look it up.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_03: I could,
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_03: I could tell you five bakeries around me,
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_03: maybe like ones up in Hudson,
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_03: Mel,
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_03: the bakery,
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: there's a,
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know,
• 23:36
  a lot of bakeries in New York City are all about viral pastry
• 23:39
  trends more than they
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_03: are about making healthy,
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_03: delicious bread.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_03: So, and, you know, like, Juliana, you're out there in LA.
• 23:47
  I mean,
• 23:47
  you know,
• 23:47
  you can go to Gusto Bread,
• 23:49
  which is a panaderia on Long Beach.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_03: You could go to maybe Clark Street Bread.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_03: You could go to maybe, I think, Lodge.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Friends and family.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_03: Friends and family.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_03: Roxana's an incredible baker.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_03: But again, you're talking about...
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_03: naming five bakeries in two of the biggest cities in the world.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:08
  And,
• 24:09
  you know,
• 24:09
  two of the biggest culinary like institutions of the country.
• 24:13
  And you still have to go out of your way to figure out where to
• 24:15
  get a good loaf of bread.
• 24:16
  So now take that and go to Latino America where there's not
• 24:21
  much money and economic
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_03: resource and import exports really difficult.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, the grain doesn't grow as well.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_03: So I think
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_03: You're seeing now movement by bakers that are able to,
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_03: like in Peru,
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_03: there's a baker,
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_03: and I wish I knew.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_03: Andy La Cholla, probably.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_03: Probably.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_03: There's a couple in Peru.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_03: There's several in Mexico.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_03: People are starting to use these techniques.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_03: It just takes longer to implement because the resources are thinner.
• 24:50
  Even getting something like a cast iron pot to bake bread hot
• 24:54
  is hard to get.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_03: I did a consultation in Medellin.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: And the bakers there were like,
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_03: hey,
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_03: they're making sourdough,
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_03: but they can only afford this little oven with sheet pans.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_03: And it just doesn't bake the same way.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_03: They cannot get a hearth stone.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_03: It's,
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_03: so I think it's just going to take time for bakers,
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 25:14
  boots on the ground to be able to figure out how to get the
• 25:17
  right grains and figure
• 25:19
  out how to get the right equipment to start baking things in a non-industrial.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_03: the Industrial Revolution,
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_03: from a bread perspective,
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_03: kind of fucked everything up in terms of instant yeast.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_03: It really just,
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_03: everyone went into the mass production and it's easier,
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_03: it's quicker,
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_03: you make more money,
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_03: but it's not healthy at all.
• 25:38
  how does that work your uh partnership with the flour meal the
• 25:42
  sunrise flour meal
• 25:43
  that's where you get your yeah so that's that is um one
• 25:49
  partnership that i have for
• 25:51
  some products that i'm working on which are going to be
• 25:54
  different like bread mixes
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_03: uh
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_03: That's like fun, right?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_03: It's heritage grain organic flour.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_03: It's grown hard red wheat, soft white wheats.
• 26:09
  Heritage grain flours are essentially varietals that are some
• 26:16
  of the original
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_03: varieties of wheat that...
• 26:18
  have existed so um it's very flavorful it's very delicious um
• 26:22
  but keyword organic
• 26:24
  keyword not bleached bromated or or you know treated with any
• 26:27
  kind of chemical
• 26:27
  whatsoever um and that that's what attracted me to working with
• 26:30
  that brand because
• 26:32
  it tastes incredible and so uh you know i just want to make
• 26:35
  some fun mixes to to
• 26:37
  get into people's hands so they can just start baking with
• 26:39
  really delicious flour
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_03: um
• 26:41
  Yeah,
• 26:41
  that's,
• 26:41
  you know,
• 26:42
  it's part it's part like,
• 26:44
  hey,
• 26:44
  let's make content together.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_03: And it's also part,
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_03: hey,
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_03: let's actually make some really cool products in the next,
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_03: I can't say a few years or something like that.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_03: But like,
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_03: we're trying to work together to come up with some ideas to make it fun,
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_03: but also make it healthy and delicious.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I have a question about how you feel,
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: conceive,
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: have thought about Latin American as a macro region,
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: because obviously there are as many differences as similarities.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I wonder if during the process of designing this book,
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: coming up with the recipes,
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: gathering information from different countries,
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: you,
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: how do you,
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: How did you feel the macro region and what defines us as Latin American?
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because again,
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: there are different levels of sweetness,
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: different ways of handling certain ingredients,
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: even when we all recognize what Latin American is,
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: but still.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_03: I think at the root of everything,
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_03: like Latin America is essentially a concept that was constructed by
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_03: colonization of lands that were owned,
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_03: I guess,
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_03: not owned,
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_03: but lands that were inhabited by indigenous people,
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_03: let's say that,
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_03: And so when you have,
• 28:12
  there's several different people came to these lands and just
• 28:18
  did whatever they
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_03: wanted to do,
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_03: So notably, you have
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_03: the Latin-based language countries like Portugal, Spain, France.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_03: These are the three biggest culprits, you could say.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_03: You have Italy, who did not colonize in Latin America.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_03: They did elsewhere, but not in Latin America.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um,
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: and yeah,
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_03: you have Portugal,
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_03: obviously you look at Venezuela,
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_03: you look at Brazil,
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_03: mostly,
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_03: mostly Brazil in terms of language,
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_03: but Venezuela does have a little bit of,
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_03: Brazilian footprint,
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_03: Portuguese footprint rather.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and, and then, so you have England as well, right?
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_03: So England is, uh, the language is not
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_03: typically are at all part of that kind of, uh, that branch of languages.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_03: So,
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_03: you've got your Jamaica,
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_03: you've got your Belize,
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_03: um,
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_03: your Trinidad and all that kind of thing,
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_03: not necessarily considered Latin America by most people.
• 29:19
  I don't think by anyone really would say Jamaica is part of
• 29:22
  Latin America.
• 29:23
  Um,
• 29:24
  but you know,
• 29:24
  you have Dominican Republic,
• 29:25
  you have Cuba,
• 29:27
  you've got,
• 29:28
  um,
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_03: Central America, Mexico, obviously.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_03: So this Spanish, the influx of Castellano, of the Spanish language.
• 29:37
  Some people,
• 29:37
  believe it or not,
• 29:38
  will say Haiti is not part of Latin America.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_03: I think it is.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_03: It's colonized by French.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_03: Brazil, obviously, Portugal.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_03: So I think it's like you look at this region,
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_03: you look at the Caribbean,
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_03: you look at Central,
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_03: South,
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_03: and North America.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_03: And you kind of just dig into what really happened here.
• 30:00
  So after these lands were colonized and these languages and
• 30:05
  ingredients and all
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_03: that kind of thing was basically forced upon people.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_03: But to this day,
• 30:12
  still speak Spanish or Castellano rather,
• 30:15
  which is the actual name of the language,
• 30:16
  right?
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_03: So,
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_03: not a lot of people,
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know,
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_03: my mom doesn't know indigenous languages from Honduras.
• 30:23
  My mom speaks Spanish,
• 30:25
  what we call,
• 30:26
  and people are very,
• 30:27
  very proud of speaking Spanish.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_03: Everyone in Latino America is extremely proud of speaking Spanish,
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_03: but I think at the same time,
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_03: they're like,
• 30:37
  When you do enough research,
• 30:38
  you do realize that there was a loss that occurred.
• 30:43
  And a loss that occurred was the original language of the
• 30:47
  people that inhabited the
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_03: lands that we come from.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_03: There was a loss.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if that really answered your question,
• 30:56
  but it's kind of how I set up the thought of where I wanted to
• 31:03
  explore in terms of
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_03: pulling recipes from.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's not super deep in Haitian baking.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_03: I have one recipe,
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_03: I think the salt cod,
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_03: which is which is the it's a Haitian patty,
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_03: essentially.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_03: And it's so good.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's like it's one of the staple baked goods.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_03: The book's big and it was hard to fit so much into it.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_03: Some countries I've got so much more to explore, Nicaragua, El Salvador.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_03: There's a little bit in there,
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_03: but some of the countries like Peru,
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_03: Mexico,
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_03: Argentina,
• 31:40
  Brazil have lots of heavy hitters that I definitely wanted to
• 31:43
  incorporate and make
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_03: sure that I got right.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_03: or as well as I could.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_03: So it's just a surface scratcher, man.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, even though it took five years, that's nothing.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_03: That's nothing.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_03: Five years is nothing in terms of research,
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_03: in terms of scholarly work,
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_03: in terms of academic and conversations and traveling.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_03: Like,
• 32:08
  Man,
• 32:09
  I could spend 100 years doing this and still never make the
• 32:12
  best version of it,
• 32:13
  I think.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_03: So I think it's a surface scratch.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_03: It's an intro.
• 32:17
  It's trying to get people to just trying to say,
• 32:21
  hey,
• 32:22
  don't forget about us.
• 32:23
  Don't forget about what we do and what we bring to the table in
• 32:28
  terms of artisanal baking.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: I was about to say,
• 32:31
  I think it looks like an inspiration for you is this shared
• 32:36
  sense of lust,
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: but also a shared sense of pride.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a good way of defining the region.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_03: If we're not prideful of, if we're not, yo, seriously, I'm Honduran.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Honduran.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_03: And,
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_03: even though I'm American,
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_03: I,
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_03: my,
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_03: both of my parents are from Honduras and,
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_03: growing up,
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_03: It was very Honduran in my house, let me tell you.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_03: But when I'd go to school, people just don't even know where Honduras is.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_03: They think it's in Mexico.
• 33:09
  That's the kind of stuff that growing up in the U.S.,
• 33:14
  I grew up in New Orleans,
• 33:15
  Louisiana.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_03: I've lived in Miami.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_03: I've lived in New York.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_03: I've traveled a lot.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_03: People don't care or realize or think to care about anything Honduras.
• 33:29
  they're very it's like it's like Mexico is Latin America a lot
• 33:32
  a lot of a lot of
• 33:32
  people really just like yeah Mexico tacos burritos and it's
• 33:37
  like no it's not that
• 33:39
  you know hey you know here's a baleada it's like oh that's just
• 33:42
  a taco and I'm like
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_03: I mean you're not it's here's the thing though it's like at at you're not
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_03: It's not exactly wrong.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's 100% wrong because it's not a taco.
• 33:53
  But the way food traverses and boundaries get crossed,
• 33:58
  like raviolis are dumplings,
• 34:01
  yes.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_03: But at the end of the day,
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not going to pull up to Italy and just be like,
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_03: let me get these dumplings.
• 34:06
  You have to respect the transition that foods make across
• 34:11
  boundaries and across time.
• 34:13
  occurs so whilst they are you know whilst pierogies are
• 34:17
  dumplings theoretically and
• 34:19
  his like but but they're but they're all they're pierogies
• 34:22
  they're a very distinct
• 34:23
  thing you have you know so so it's interesting like when i'm
• 34:25
  like oh yeah oh so a
• 34:27
  taco with beans and cheese it's like well fucking yeah if you
• 34:31
  want to be a fucking
• 34:32
  prick you can just simplify everything like that sure it's very
• 34:36
  incomplete and lack
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: of context
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 34:39
  And so it's interesting how in Latin America that happens and
• 34:41
  no one bats an eye.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_03: But if you call pizza flatbread, everyone will freak out.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_03: And the whole world gets outraged.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, pizza is not a flatbread.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_03: But but whatever's happened over there, we'll just call it whatever.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 34:55
  What's the best way to I always wonder this,
• 34:58
  like,
• 34:58
  what's the best way to.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_02: To challenge that.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: Because at the same time,
• 35:05
  if somebody makes a fucking Baleata rung and posts a picture on
• 35:11
  Instagram or
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: mislabels it,
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: people also flip out now.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: But it ends up backfiring.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_02: And then it's like there's this just ridiculous fight of...
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: it's just food, share it.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then it's like, no, this is the right way.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just like, there's never like somebody always like goes too far.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean,
• 35:38
  it just becomes this ridiculous thing and everybody's wrong and
• 35:41
  just ashamed of
• 35:42
  themselves for acting like that to people they don't know on
• 35:45
  the internet.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_03: The internet, the internet's an app, the internet's a disaster.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_03: The internet's,
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_02: I know,
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: but it's like,
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: how do you,
• 35:53
  how do you really change things if you can't just like call
• 35:56
  people out all the time and,
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: Fucking social media.
• 35:59
  No,
• 36:00
  I,
• 36:00
  man,
• 36:02
  I have a video of a baleada that I posted a month ago or
• 36:05
  something like that.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like, it's a great, it's fucking awesome video.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_03: It looks delicious.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_03: It's performed well.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_03: And there's so many positive comments on it.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, there's so many.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_03: But there are literal Central Americans,
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_03: though,
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_03: that wanted to pull up and be like,
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_03: oh,
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_03: those beans aren't the right color.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just like, bro, that's the I don't know the lighting.
• 36:25
  It's like,
• 36:25
  oh,
• 36:25
  you didn't use you didn't use real Central American red beans.
• 36:28
  I'm like,
• 36:28
  yeah,
• 36:29
  in this video,
• 36:29
  I didn't because I'm just in my kitchen in New York.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what I had.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's crazy.
• 36:34
  You know,
• 36:35
  and that's the other side of it where,
• 36:36
  you know,
• 36:37
  there's there are rules.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, I believe rules are meant to be broken.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_03: I think like when you cook food, you cook with what you've got.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's how you get deep dish pizza.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_03: That's how you get, you know, Americanized Chinese food.
• 36:50
  it's yes it's still chinese people cooking it but it's not what
• 36:53
  they would cook in
• 36:53
  china they're just cooking it that way because that's how
• 36:55
  that's what they've got
• 36:57
  that's how they cooked it you know the deep dish it's like well
• 36:59
  they wanted to make
• 37:00
  pizza they had these deep pans whatever you know whatever the
• 37:02
  little story is they
• 37:04
  you know so but then it's like well that's not p it's like guys
• 37:06
  calm down no i know
• 37:07
  it's like they're bringing up their personal experience in
• 37:11
  trying to like equate it
• 37:13
  with the rest of the world's personal experience yeah like i
• 37:16
  mean even in honduras
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_02: like
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: The beans change by regions, you know?
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:21
  Like,
• 37:21
  it might be black beans somewhere and then red beans,
• 37:24
  you know,
• 37:25
  somewhere else.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_02: So, Balayata is never just...
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: straightforward thing that's always the same.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_03: My mom puts egg in her tortilla though and coconut milk.
• 37:35
  There's also comments of like,
• 37:37
  oh,
• 37:37
  there's no egg in tortilla and I'm Honduran.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, well, my mom's Honduran and there's egg in the tortilla.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_03: So how do we continue this discussion?
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_03: What else is there?
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_03: What else do you want us to say?
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_03: She's from there.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_03: So,
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 37:51
  coconut milk in the beans is a gangster move that my grandma
• 37:55
  showed us on my dad's side.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_03: So my dad's the black side.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_03: My mom's the indigenous side, both from Honduras.
• 38:02
  So coconut milk in the beans,
• 38:03
  coconut milk,
• 38:04
  you know,
• 38:04
  so some people didn't do it.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, man, we all just trying to make it, huh?
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I know.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's the thing.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, it's just hard when it's like, we're so reactionary.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like these days,
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: like I'm not saying you guys like,
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: but like,
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: especially,
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_02: when you post a recipe or post a piece of writing and it's,
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_02: it doesn't equate to somebody else's personal experience.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, there just has to be a fight.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_03: And it's,
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: it's,
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_03: it's,
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_03: yeah,
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_03: it's,
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_03: it's,
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_03: I'm,
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not,
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_03: that things are evolving so fast right now.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_03: that I don't even know what's up or down, bro.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I don't even know what to do some days.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like,
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_03: every single part of the industry from actually having a bakery to,
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 38:57
  writing or being a recipe creator or whatever kind of hybrid
• 39:01
  individual I've become
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_03: that does all these things.
• 39:04
  But all of the components move too fast for,
• 39:08
  in my opinion,
• 39:08
  a real human to keep up with.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know that this level of movement,
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_03: this level of...
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm not trying to be an old head.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_03: You know what an old head is?
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_03: An old head is like...
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_03: Let's say in sports terms,
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_03: old heads...
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_03: My dad would be like,
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_03: there's no player better than Pelé.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_03: No matter what he sees...
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_03: old heads just die on like what I saw was the best.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_03: So like old head mentality is for me,
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just like,
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think I can keep up with the progression here.
• 39:44
  Does that make me sound like I'm a dinosaur or does that make
• 39:46
  me sound like I'm not
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_03: going to be able to survive if I don't pay attention and keep up?
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 39:51
  I just,
• 39:53
  I remember posting a picture to Instagram,
• 39:56
  uh,
• 39:57
  in 2016 and that shit was it.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_03: You just posted a picture of the bread and
• 40:01
  moved on with your day people engage with it oh man that's dope
• 40:05
  and you got and it
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_03: was great just a single picture of the bread now you got to do a whole tv
• 40:11
  production you got to set up two cameras you got to have lights
• 40:15
  asmr sounds you got
• 40:16
  to put the trending music you got to da da da you got to post
• 40:20
  four times a week and
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_03: let it hit bang bang and i'm like jeez
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_03: what a shift, what a shift in our mentality to consume.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I just,
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_03: yeah,
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a little bit,
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a little bit like what,
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_03: like I said,
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_03: what's up,
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_03: what's down here,
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_03: man.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, I'm the same way, man.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like I feel, I feel jaded by all this social media and stuff.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like,
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: but it's,
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: it's hard to break yourself free of it and,
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_02: create this own path.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, it's, it's so hard to,
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_02: to avoid it?
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I'm a participant.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_03: I'm participating and I'm not I'm not saying I'm not trying to complain.
• 41:04
  I'm just genuinely saying that my brain is struggling to keep
• 41:07
  up sometimes.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, it's because it's a lot of shifts.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_03: You know, is TikTok going to get banned tomorrow?
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_03: Even if it gets banned
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_03: Should you use a VPN to stay on it?
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_03: There's no more fact checking on these apps now.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_03: I don't have an opinion about it.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just like, what do we do?
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_03: What are we trying to do here?
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of noise.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_03: For what?
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: No, I know.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's just like you can't keep up.
• 41:39
  And the only people that keep up are the ones in charge of
• 41:42
  these algorithms that
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_02: dictate how things are going to change.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_02: And
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_02: I think we're at this point to where you can never win in that system.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like very few people can.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_02: Julie, you're rolling your eyes.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not at all.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_03: But that's no different.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_03: It's no different, in my opinion, than the restaurant industry.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_03: It really is no different.
• 42:06
  Because what used to be someone's ability to have a mom and pop
• 42:14
  restaurant
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_03: is impossible it is impossible there's doesn't exist right especially and
• 42:22
  specifically in any kind of major or cool city any kind of city
• 42:27
  where you would
• 42:27
  want to be miami new york la seattle austin new orleans is
• 42:34
  stagnant and still
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_03: pretty affordable to do there no one does anything there
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_03: No offense.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_03: Cut that out.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_03: Don't let me cut that out.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_03: Don't put that shitting on my own city.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_03: But seriously,
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_03: if you go to any of these cities and you're just,
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_03: I want to open a bakery.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_03: I want to open a bakery in New York.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_03: I've tried.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_03: I've been trying.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I've been spending and spending and spending.
• 42:57
  And the labor and the rent and everything in the overhead is so
• 43:01
  incredibly astronomical.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_03: that there's no way someone could have a mom and pop shop here.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_03: You have to have hedge fund investors come in.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_03: You have to get some person,
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_03: typically some dude,
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_03: with a bunch of Wall Street money or something,
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_03: who wants to scale your concept or who wants to, you know.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_03: So now what you see is the model of,
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_03: first of all,
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_03: and then first of all,
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_03: if you open up something,
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_03: you got to have a line out the door and it's got to be all over TikTok.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_03: You got to have a line out the door.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's got to be all over TikTok.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_03: If you ain't doing that, no one gives a shit about you.
• 43:34
  If all the influencers in your city aren't there posting on it
• 43:37
  on TikTok,
• 43:38
  then you failed.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_03: That is it.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_02: But not only that, they have to stay there.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_02: They have to come day after day even when the next trend comes.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_02: So you can pay your bills.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's impossible.
• 43:51
  I'm a little bit jaded of that where I'm like,
• 43:53
  what happened to just a bakery?
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_03: A bakery.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_03: A bakery.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_03: A bakery.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: A bakery.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 44:02
  I have every and this is this is chances are no one that I'm
• 44:07
  talking about will be
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_03: listening to this.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, but I have so many friends and I know so many people.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_03: God bless them.
• 44:15
  Love them to death that run bakeries and not a single one of
• 44:19
  them has ever come to
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_03: me and said,
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_03: man,
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_03: I'm making great money.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, I have days off.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, zero of that.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_03: It's, I'm barely staying afloat, barely making money.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_03: I never have any time off.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_03: And a lot of them don't even own 100% of their own business.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_03: So,
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_03: people my age,
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_03: people my age trying to just,
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_03: just to make,
• 44:44
  just to share their passion of being a baker is that hard in
• 44:49
  this country right now
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_03: that you can't even really do it.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: So what do we do?
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_02: What are you going to say?
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_02: What are you going to say, Juliana?
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like you're trying to... What have you got?
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_03: No, I have a... I don't know.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_03: A concern.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_03: A frustration.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, so...
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because at the same time, I think, I don't know.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think eating out should be more of a very special thing to do.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: I know that leaves out of the picture many restaurants,
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: but I think people should get used to just cook more,
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_00: prioritize buying the best food instead of going out so much,
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_00: because restaurants are still not viable anyway at the end of the day.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I wonder if that happens, then you can prioritize places
• 46:02
  where you can actually get more daily things like bakeries and
• 46:05
  you know maybe that
• 46:06
  balance instead of you know fine dining and so much of that
• 46:11
  that many of these
• 46:12
  places still have to close at the end of the day they're not
• 46:15
  sustainable or if they
• 46:16
  function is because i don't know the chevy is all over the
• 46:20
  media or whatever it is
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: but
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I agree with you.
• 46:25
  And I think it seems to be so unviable that I wonder if a
• 46:29
  different proportion of
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: where people put their money.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: But that means a change of mindset in the consumer.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I...
• 46:39
  When I say,
• 46:40
  when people think,
• 46:41
  oh,
• 46:42
  we need to understand what people want.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_00: No, you need to educate.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 46:46
  people need to educate themselves to really prioritize all
• 46:50
  their stuff like,
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 46:52
  mom and pop bakeries and people that are really nourishing and
• 46:56
  sustaining life
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_00: because that's it.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have a solution.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just... No, no, yeah.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I don't think there's exactly a solution because the...
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_03: First of all,
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_03: what I'll say is when you're in Latin America,
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_03: when you're in Europe,
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_03: those are the parts of the world I've been to the most for comparison.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_03: You can't have a mom and pop bakery.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, more of that.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, it is basically only that.
• 47:25
  And there are cities like Paris,
• 47:26
  and don't quote me,
• 47:27
  I think,
• 47:28
  they don't really let you develop.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_03: The issue is developers here in the US, man.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I...
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_03: Again, I'm not trying to be on any kind of capitalism shit or whatever.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, romanticizing all the ratings.
• 47:42
  But I'm just being realistic that once developers got their...
• 47:47
  You know this...
• 47:48
  What is this?
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_03: John George?
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_03: He's got this big food hall in the seaport.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I've never been to it.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I went to it once.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_03: Beautiful.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_03: Beautiful bakery.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_03: All kind of shit in it.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_03: All this crap.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_03: I just saw an article today.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_03: They're losing $100,000 a day.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_03: They're losing $100,000 a day.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_03: They just fired all their undocumented workers or some shit.
• 48:11
  They're losing $100,000 a day and they're losing $8 million a year,
• 48:15
  80 million.
• 48:16
  I'm like,
• 48:18
  bro,
• 48:19
  you have the name of one of the most decorated chefs you could find.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_03: And you create this big concept in New York City,
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_03: the city with the most money in the world or something like that.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_03: And you're losing $100.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_03: So how the hell am I supposed to make money?
• 48:35
  If you are losing that much money and you have all that money
• 48:38
  to make something dope,
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_03: how the heck do you expect a regular person to make any money?
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_03: And that's a huge problem.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_03: The development of...
• 48:48
  investment and development is is destroying and also subsidize
• 48:53
  you know because in
• 48:54
  places like france and greece they subsidize uh wheat and you
• 49:00
  know i went the
• 49:01
  pandemic the only thing that didn't shut down in france was
• 49:05
  bread because you know
• 49:07
  they they know what's basic so but like bakeries and
• 49:11
  boulangeries so i think
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: that's when the state could help,
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: because again,
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: this is daily,
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: as you said,
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: it's one of the oldest.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: There is nothing that is not basic about it.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_00: And that's when the state should be a little bit paternalistic, because
• 49:30
  Why in France,
• 49:32
  why in Paris,
• 49:34
  croissant or a baguette that is like five euros or six euros?
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's outrageous.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: People don't accept that.
• 49:40
  If they do,
• 49:41
  it's because it's a luxury bakery that uses other ingredients.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, fine.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_00: You can have that experience once a month and you choose that.
• 49:48
  But the daily stock keeps to reasonable price because the
• 49:53
  government knows that's
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: part of the basics.
• 49:55
  yeah so and that that doesn't happen in latin america that
• 49:58
  obviously it doesn't
• 49:59
  happen here but i think that model makes these places a little
• 50:04
  bit more sustainable
• 50:05
  100 yeah so i was in uh tokyo a couple years ago and what
• 50:12
  impressed me more than
• 50:13
  you know just food and everything was how many just small
• 50:18
  independent businesses
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_02: there were like
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_02: I was there writing about wine and like wine bars specifically.
• 50:26
  And there were so many of these like little bars that had like
• 50:30
  three seats.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_02: They could just focus on this very,
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_02: very niche topic in this giant city because,
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_02: there's an audience for everything,
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_02: I guess.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_02: But they could make a fucking three seat bar serving just,
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 50:46
  wines from a certain part of France in a certain style and they
• 50:50
  can make that work.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_02: And then,
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_02: maybe they take off and eventually they,
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_02: expand a little bit,
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_02: but then add like six seats.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_02: And there's all these restaurants,
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_02: like all these amazing,
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_02: like three Michelin star restaurants that began in these like,
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_02: six seat counters in this little hall.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_02: and there's still basically that,
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_02: maybe,
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_02: the kitchen's a little nicer or whatever,
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_02: but it makes me wonder like,
• 51:21
  Why is it so easy there to just follow your passion of whatever
• 51:26
  weird shit you are into,
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_02: create a business out of it,
• 51:30
  and you can make it work without just having a line out the
• 51:34
  door all the time and
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_02: all this attention nonstop.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_02: But you can just make that living off a little bit of following.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, man.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_03: We all know why, man.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_03: That's a deep conversation.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_03: That's it.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_03: too deep for right now, man.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_03: We'll go off the rails.
• 51:54
  If we go from this point and continue this conversation,
• 51:58
  we're going to go off the rails,
• 51:59
  guys.
• 51:59
  We're going to just,
• 52:00
  you know,
• 52:01
  they might throw us in jail or some shit we'll talk about.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_03: But anyway, yeah, at the end of the day, man, I'm a baker, man.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_03: All I want to do is bake bread.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_03: All I want to do is bake bread.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_03: And if, you know, continuing to write about it,
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_03: or make instructional videos about it.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_03: Basically, how can I sustain my life while living my passion?
• 52:29
  Because I have learned that it is unsustainable to attempt a
• 52:33
  production of any sort.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_03: It's just too much.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_03: You know, that's where I'm at, man.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_03: I love writing.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_03: I love making books.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_03: I love making recipes.
• 52:43
  You know,
• 52:44
  do I get the fulfillment that I truly want from the bottom of
• 52:47
  my heart?
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_03: Not necessarily.
• 52:49
  I definitely want a little spot somewhere where I'm pulling out
• 52:51
  some coconut breads
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_03: and serving some Honduran coffee to people.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_03: That shit would be so cool, man.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_02: You think you've turned off of that idea forever?
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 53:00
  not forever not forever man i'm i'm i'm 35 there's there's
• 53:06
  there's plenty of time
• 53:07
  at some point to do it but it has to make sense for my my my
• 53:12
  health and my my
• 53:14
  financial health physical health and mental health those are
• 53:17
  the three most
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_03: important things we all have in this world man and we got you know
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_03: At a certain point,
• 53:22
  living in New York has been a nice buzz and shock to the system
• 53:25
  for the past four years.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_03: But I'm a Southern boy.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_03: You heard me.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I'm saying?
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_03: I'm from New Orleans.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_03: I need to slow down the way my brain is operating, recalibrate.
• 53:37
  uh the the path forward and not get caught up too much in the
• 53:41
  hype and caught up
• 53:42
  too much in the hype machine of these cities and socials and
• 53:45
  like oh you're if
• 53:46
  you're a cool chef you gotta you gotta open up a concept you
• 53:49
  gotta open up a
• 53:49
  concept you know what i'm saying you got you know that and that
• 53:54
  it will catch my
• 53:54
  brain a little bit wrong yeah man i gotta make the best bakery
• 53:56
  in new york i gotta
• 53:57
  go find a million dollars so i can open it up i gotta partner
• 53:59
  with that there's
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_03: that
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_03: Slow it down, buddy.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_03: You heard me.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm just taking a break.
• 54:06
  What do you think connected you in the first place with baking
• 54:10
  and this world?
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, man.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm from New Orleans.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_03: And when I was going through college, I had to pay for it.
• 54:21
  uh you know i got like a little scholarship but you know i was
• 54:25
  i wasn't killing it
• 54:26
  in high school or anything so i had a little scholarship so i
• 54:28
  started i started i
• 54:29
  was a cook i started as a cook i started in the kitchens prep
• 54:31
  cook line cook um you
• 54:33
  know doing po boys doing uh etouffets red beans uh oyster
• 54:38
  rockefeller man i was
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_03: killing it i was a good cook i am a good cook um
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_03: And New Orleans is a food city.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_03: It's a food city.
• 54:46
  But I just got burnt out of the line cook lifestyle,
• 54:48
  even though I was like 18,
• 54:49
  19,
• 54:50
  20.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_03: And it was fun to, you know, drink and
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I'm saying?
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_03: It's like late night.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_03: I'm drinking.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_03: I'm in New Orleans.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a cook.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going out after to the parties and all that kind of thing.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_03: It's fun.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_03: But like at a certain point, I was I was getting exhausted.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm a morning person, 100 percent morning person.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_03: You know, so I was getting my accounting degree.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_03: So I was always up at six.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_03: I did become a CPA, by the way.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_03: But but I was always up at like six a.m.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, man, I don't know how to sleep in.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_03: To this day, I don't know how to sleep in.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_03: I like to wake up, start my day when it's quiet.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_03: And so I started baking king cakes.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_03: I started going off to,
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_03: during Mardi Gras,
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_03: selling king cake by the slice,
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_03: and that shit was fun.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I'm saying?
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, yeah, this is dope.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_03: Then I started, I was like, what else could I bake?
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_03: I started making croissants, started making baguettes.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_03: I just got addicted to it.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, this was a long time ago.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_03: I just...
• 55:47
  Then I started working in bakeries and started my own wholesale
• 55:50
  bakery in Miami.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_03: I can't let it go.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_03: I love it.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_03: I love baking, man.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_03: I'm addicted to it, bro.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's incredible.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's so soothing.
• 55:59
  In my opinion,
• 56:01
  it's the best thing you could possibly do in your kitchen at home.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_03: It's me, my personal opinion.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_03: The most rewarding – I'm looking at a jar of sweet sourdough preferment.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_03: If you see me keep looking,
• 56:13
  I'm looking at this jar because I'm going to bake something
• 56:16
  super dope with it.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_03: And I've literally, over the past hour, watched it grow.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_03: And so I'm like, I just – yeah, it's just –
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_03: touching dough, bro.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know what to say.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it just makes me feel incredible.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_03: So as long as I still have that fire in me,
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_03: as long as I still have that passion in me,
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_03: man,
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_03: like I'm going to continue doing this for a very long time.
• 56:37
  And no matter how the media shifts and how the money shifts and
• 56:41
  how the actual
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_03: climate of the world and the climate of our industry shifts,
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going to do my best to find the right
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_03: place for what I bring to the table,
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_03: which is just a passion for not just Latin American baking,
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_03: but just educating people on how to bake.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_03: That's great.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_02: So between the first book in this book, like what changed?
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think like,
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean your approach to everything,
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_02: the first book happened,
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_02: you were kind of like,
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_02: how did the first book happen?
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like, let's go through it.
• 57:17
  Like you,
• 57:18
  you have a blog that overnight was kind of like a big success,
• 57:23
  right?
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like it just kind of blew up.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_02: Why, why did it blow up at first?
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think I knew you when it was happening yet.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_03: I think I,
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_03: I,
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_03: again,
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_03: the old head mentality,
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_03: but man,
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_03: like social media was different back then.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_03: And, uh,
• 57:40
  being a baker or someone that shared baked goods and baking on
• 57:45
  social media,
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_03: it was like a community.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_03: It definitely is not the same at all.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_03: But it used to be
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 57:55
  there were specific hashtags you could follow and you could get
• 57:57
  into these like
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_03: bread baking groups.
• 58:00
  And like,
• 58:00
  you know,
• 58:01
  there was you start to learn who are the who are the popular bakers.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_03: This guy,
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_03: Adam Pegor in England,
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_03: they got,
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_03: and you start to start to watch,
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_03: start to communicate with them.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_03: And.
• 58:15
  I was at the time living in my I moved to Miami from New
• 58:17
  Orleans to pursue actually to pursue.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_03: I was 25 or 26.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_03: So I was trying to pursue a soccer playing career.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, I was really good.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_03: And so I was I was also coaching.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_03: So I love soccer.
• 58:31
  It's like my that's like aside from baking,
• 58:33
  it's like the two things that keep my brain happy.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_03: So I moved to Miami.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_03: I was doing some soccer, doing some baking.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_03: But then I tore my Achilles tendon and
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_03: Kind of was like the sign of also just like, bro, you're 26.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_03: Like, stop.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you're good, but just stop.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_03: If you were actually good, you'd be somewhere by now.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_03: So I was like, all right, fine.
• 58:57
  So while my Achilles was torn,
• 59:01
  I was like,
• 59:02
  I need to take my bacon to the next level.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_03: This was in like 2015 or 2016.
• 59:06
  i gotta take my bacon to the next level man like i've been you
• 59:08
  know i've been
• 59:09
  making king cakes i've been making all you know croissants so i
• 59:12
  started making uh
• 59:13
  various types of sourdough uh bread sourdough you know and i'd
• 59:18
  bring it to the
• 59:19
  practice where i was coaching i'd sell it to the parents i
• 59:21
  started i started a
• 59:22
  hustle i would bring breads for the parents sweets for the kids
• 59:25
  everyone was you
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_03: know everyone's vibing uh and it got to the point where um
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_03: I was very focused on the European style of baking.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I will say 100%.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_03: Seriously, go on my Instagram.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_03: Don't actually do this, but if you did, if you were bored at 2 a.m.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_03: at night and you're scrolling, go all the way down.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_03: All the way down my page,
• 59:47
  you're going to see a ton of crumb shots and baguettes and shit
• 59:50
  and croissants.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_03: It's all the way down there from years and years ago.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_03: And my mom visited me once in Miami,
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_03: and I was baking all this shit with the sourdough and everything.
• 1:00:01
  And she was like,
• 1:00:01
  hey,
• 1:00:02
  she's literally just like,
• 1:00:03
  why don't you make pan de coco?
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_03: Make me one.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_03: She's like, I want some.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, oh, word.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_03: Seriously, I literally was like, pan de coco with some Honduran.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I'm saying?
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_03: Why not?
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_03: Bruh, I made that shit.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_03: I posted a video of that, and it just...
• 1:00:21
  literally just it just took off because people were like yo
• 1:00:25
  like i didn't know you
• 1:00:27
  could make something like that with sourdough and that a little
• 1:00:30
  light bulb moment
• 1:00:31
  happened for me too i was like oh okay cool so like i just did
• 1:00:34
  something that
• 1:00:35
  people that's new to people and so i was like how do i give
• 1:00:38
  this recipe uh i guess
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_03: i go start a blog so i go and do my little research get on like
• 1:00:44
  wicks or squarespace or some really basic shit right and i
• 1:00:48
  threw the recipe up
• 1:00:49
  there and for the next couple years bro every day people was
• 1:00:53
  making this recipe and
• 1:00:53
  then started doing more recipes uh and a publisher reached out
• 1:00:58
  and that was it they
• 1:00:59
  were like yo like we think your approach to making sourdough is
• 1:01:01
  really cool you
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_03: want to make a book and i was like what i was like fuck fuck
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_03: that I make a book for.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, I'll make a book, dude.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_03: Are you kidding me?
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_03: Who the hell am I?
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I had like 800 followers, literally.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, whatever.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'll make a book.
• 1:01:16
  And then I started working at Sullivan Street Bakery in Miami
• 1:01:20
  and a bagel shop,
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_03: started sharpening my skills.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_03: And once the book deal went through, this was in 2018.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know the years anymore.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, you know, I'm picking up steam here.
• 1:01:34
  I was like,
• 1:01:35
  I want to do something bigger than just working at these bakeries.
• 1:01:37
  So I started bakery started hitting me up in Latin America for consulting.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_03: I got hit up by a bakery in Panama.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_03: I got hit up by a bakery in Colombia.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_03: I got hit up by a bakery in Bolivia.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_03: Because I started posting more Latino shit, bro.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_03: I started just going in.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_03: I was like pan de coco, semitas, birotes.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_03: I was just making it.
• 1:01:57
  And then I started traveling down there to do some consulting
• 1:02:00
  and helping people
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_03: make better bread,
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_03: helping people make sourdough.
• 1:02:04
  Came back to Miami and started working as a head baker for a
• 1:02:07
  restaurant group.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_03: And at the same time, I was running the blog and the brand stuff.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_03: So...
• 1:02:14
  All leading up to the pub date of June 16,
• 1:02:18
  2020,
• 1:02:18
  which was,
• 1:02:19
  you know,
• 1:02:19
  set in stone.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_03: And then the pandemic hit.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_03: And,
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_03: in the middle of the traumatic experience we all went through,
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_03: people started baking fucking bread,
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_03: dude.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, like, I don't... What can I say?
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_03: I...
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_03: It was a book born out of really just trying to do something cool.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I'm saying?
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_03: Trying to make recipes in a cool way with a different approach.
• 1:02:42
  And it was never a book intended to say,
• 1:02:46
  I'm an authoritative artisanal baker.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know, man.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I was just trying to do something cool.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_03: So it definitely elevated me to different levels.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, my wife actually produced my first TV show.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_03: She reached out to me.
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_03: She reached out to me before.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_03: the book came out.
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_03: So she reached out to me pretty early.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_03: She's the first TV producer to ever reach out to me.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, thank God we're having a kid now.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_03: So guess that worked out for me.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_03: I got a TV show, a wife and a kid out of that shit.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_03: Come on now.
• 1:03:19
  So anyway,
• 1:03:20
  um,
• 1:03:22
  that,
• 1:03:22
  you know,
• 1:03:23
  things kind of just snow have snowballed from there.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I do think that I miss the,
• 1:03:30
  I do think I missed the window to have that mom and pop
• 1:03:33
  experience bakery,
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_03: which is something I was like kind of trying to do at the same time.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_03: But the media stuff, it comes fast.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_03: They pay a lot of money to do things.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_03: It takes a lot of time.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_03: And so as the window closed,
• 1:03:47
  uh you know you find yourself in these conditions now in bigger
• 1:03:50
  cities with bigger
• 1:03:51
  developments and big you know just unaffordable labor like
• 1:03:54
  things are just the the
• 1:03:56
  inflation rates and everything and so it's like i was like oh
• 1:03:58
  shit so now i'm
• 1:03:58
  sitting here i'm like maybe i don't need to do that because
• 1:04:01
  like i don't see how i
• 1:04:02
  could enter that arena anymore um but anyway that's that's kind
• 1:04:08
  of very very long
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_02: story very very short so now this book like when um
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_02: I think like before publishing,
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_02: you were a little worried that,
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_02: in the book,
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_02: like right on the first page,
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_02: you start talking about colonialism,
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_02: talk about slavery right in the introduction.
• 1:04:31
  You were worried like a few months ago,
• 1:04:33
  like,
• 1:04:34
  am I fucking scaring people?
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like, is it?
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_02: But it's the people have come around, right?
• 1:04:39
  Like,
• 1:04:39
  I feel like suddenly in the last like few weeks,
• 1:04:42
  month,
• 1:04:43
  it's it's everywhere.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_03: Listen, yeah.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know how I feel about it anymore, man.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_03: I'm telling you right now,
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_03: one minute,
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_03: 15 publishers are lined up and in a bidding war over this book.
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_03: And every journalist is writing about,
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_03: after New World,
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_03: between 2020 and 2021,
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_03: after New World sourdough comes out,
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_03: every journalist and their fucking mother is emailing me.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_03: Every TV producer is emailing me interested to talk about,
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_03: oh,
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_03: anti this and that black baker colonial.
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_03: You fast forward a couple of years,
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_03: my G,
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_03: and I feel like there's a big shift happening in consumers.
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_03: And nobody really wants to talk about this shit no more.
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_03: There's, in my opinion, a huge shift.
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_03: And it's, you know, tone at the top.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not going to assume your political affiliations,
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_03: but,
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_03: there's new energy coming into the country.
• 1:05:50
  There's a new energy to change and delete textbooks and change
• 1:05:56
  how things are
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_03: taught to kids in this country.
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_03: There's a new energy to suppress this information.
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_03: Even on,
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_03: I know I'm seeing this no more fact checking or whatever,
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_03: but I mean,
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_03: if you're on social media and you want to start posting,
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_03: hey,
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_03: if I want to start posting about colonization today,
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going to tell you right now,
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_03: it ain't going to work out well like it used to.
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_03: It used to work.
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_03: People used to want to talk about it.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_03: People used to want to write about it.
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought it was insane when my book was coming out.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_03: I was kind of like,
• 1:06:34
  what happened to all these people three years ago that was
• 1:06:36
  hitting me up every day,
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_03: nonstop to talk about this shit.
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_03: Every reporter, journalist, every news outlet was hitting me up.
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_03: And now the book's coming out and there's not a peep.
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_03: There's not a peep from them.
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_03: Which is fine.
• 1:06:51
  I'm not saying this shit is so dope that everyone needs to be
• 1:06:54
  talking about it.
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_03: I just think it's an interesting...
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_03: Then,
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_03: then I start to feel like...
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like,
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_03: okay,
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_03: so this book is dope.
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_03: It's coming out.
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_03: And then,
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_03: you start to see the opinions of journalists come out via,
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_03: these cookbook lists and all this kind of thing.
• 1:07:10
  And I just...
• 1:07:11
  I was like,
• 1:07:11
  you know...
• 1:07:12
  I was like...
• 1:07:16
  There are baking books about cookies...
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_03: that make the New York Times best cookbooks list?
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_03: LA Times best cookbooks list?
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_03: Cookies.
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_03: Or, you know, listen, bro, this ain't, I love all my colleagues.
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_03: I just, it was strange.
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_03: It was strange to not get a sniff at
• 1:07:39
  at a little bit more energy behind a book that was very
• 1:07:44
  different than the baking
• 1:07:45
  books that have come out and the energy that these very
• 1:07:49
  journalists fueled me with
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_03: and and and gassed me up with and pumped me up with.
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_03: And it just felt like at the end of the sales are fine,
• 1:07:58
  SPEAKER_03: by the way,
• 1:07:58
  SPEAKER_03: just just so just so everyone knows the sales are fucking fine.
• 1:08:01
  SPEAKER_03: They can found the consumer and on the consumer and it's doing great.
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_03: So many people DMing me pictures, baking from it.
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_03: That side is great.
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_03: The sales are great.
• 1:08:13
  But the press side of it,
• 1:08:16
  there was a little bit,
• 1:08:17
  but it's a little interesting.
• 1:08:20
  There's not a lot of people wanting to have these conversations specifically.
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_03: When you say the word slavery right now, good luck.
• 1:08:32
  SPEAKER_03: Good luck getting people to amplify and believe you.
• 1:08:38
  We're at the point where it's like,
• 1:08:39
  do we have to convince most of America that this happened?
• 1:08:43
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I'm saying?
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_02: But it's weird how things shifted so quick.
• 1:08:52
  SPEAKER_02: Pandemic happens.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_02: Suddenly, everyone's an ally.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone's...
• 1:08:57
  SPEAKER_03: It was George Floyd.
• 1:08:58
  SPEAKER_03: It was George Floyd's, rest in peace, rest in peace.
• 1:09:01
  It was George Floyd's murder that sent everyone running looking
• 1:09:05
  for a black friend,
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_03: everyone looking for a black ally,
• 1:09:10
  SPEAKER_03: looking for a black face,
• 1:09:12
  SPEAKER_03: not putting on black face,
• 1:09:13
  SPEAKER_03: but looking for a black individual to pump up.
• 1:09:17
  I'm telling you right now,
• 1:09:18
  I remember specifically everything that happened.
• 1:09:20
  And as soon as that moment of Black Lives Matter occurred
• 1:09:25
  during the pandemic,
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_03: And the food media was in a frenzy.
• 1:09:29
  SPEAKER_03: Gordon Ramsay's vice president of production emailed me.
• 1:09:33
  SPEAKER_03: A24 emailed me.
• 1:09:34
  SPEAKER_03: Brian McGinnis from Chef's Table called me on the phone.
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_03: That's how I met David Chang.
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_03: That's how I met Samin Nasrat.
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_03: No, this is not like saying that.
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_03: Tricky.
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_03: Fuck it.
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's true, though.
• 1:09:45
  SPEAKER_03: It's true.
• 1:09:45
  SPEAKER_03: I got all these phone calls after this movement.
• 1:09:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:09:51
  SPEAKER_02: So do it what you will, bro.
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, what's going to happen now?
• 1:09:57
  All those people,
• 1:09:59
  are they still,
• 1:10:00
  you know,
• 1:10:02
  like,
• 1:10:03
  what's their thinking now?
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like, was everything just...
• 1:10:07
  SPEAKER_02: like a trend,
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_02: like suddenly,
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_02: like black rights suddenly matter for,
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:10:13
  SPEAKER_02: a year and then suddenly now they don't anymore.
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like, okay, let's welcome Trump in.
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_02: Let's, let's, let's see what happens.
• 1:10:21
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe he can do something.
• 1:10:22
  SPEAKER_02: No,
• 1:10:22
  SPEAKER_02: he's going to fucking,
• 1:10:24
  but what gives me some hope is that the backlash to Trump the
• 1:10:28
  last time created,
• 1:10:31
  SPEAKER_02: I think was part of what caused the,
• 1:10:36
  everyone to rally around Black Lives Matter and all of these
• 1:10:39
  kind of social movements.
• 1:10:40
  Maybe the backlash this next time is going to be even bigger
• 1:10:44
  and more lasting.
• 1:10:46
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 1:10:47
  SPEAKER_03: Bro,
• 1:10:47
  SPEAKER_03: while we were on this call,
• 1:10:49
  SPEAKER_03: I got an update on my thing that said Meta is discontinuing their DEI.
• 1:10:54
  SPEAKER_03: Listen, I'm not saying DEI.
• 1:10:58
  SPEAKER_03: DEI is like the word woke.
• 1:11:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I know.
• 1:11:02
  SPEAKER_03: These are just... These are signs of...
• 1:11:05
  SPEAKER_03: It's not about the specific issue.
• 1:11:07
  SPEAKER_03: It's more about signs of how all these issues are now about to...
• 1:11:11
  SPEAKER_03: Shit's about to get real,
• 1:11:13
  SPEAKER_03: y'all.
• 1:11:13
  Anyway,
• 1:11:14
  again,
• 1:11:14
  we could go in a different direction of this conversation,
• 1:11:16
  but it does...
• 1:11:19
  SPEAKER_03: It does impact my work.
• 1:11:21
  Of course it does,
• 1:11:22
  because my work,
• 1:11:23
  you know,
• 1:11:23
  a large body of my work is about our history.
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_03: And that particular history is they're trying to do away with it.
• 1:11:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:11:32
  No,
• 1:11:33
  I mean,
• 1:11:33
  like,
• 1:11:33
  as I said,
• 1:11:34
  and I was going in earlier,
• 1:11:36
  I like that your books are personal.
• 1:11:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I like that the first page,
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:11:42
  SPEAKER_02: talks about colonialism,
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_02: talks about slavery,
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_02: because how could it not?
• 1:11:47
  How could you write a bread book about bread in Latin America
• 1:11:50
  as an Afro-Hondorian
• 1:11:51
  SPEAKER_02: baker and not talk about those things?
• 1:11:55
  And even though people are going to react one other way in
• 1:11:59
  social media,
• 1:12:01
  you have to.
• 1:12:02
  SPEAKER_02: You have to keep talking about those things.
• 1:12:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I think –
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_02: It takes courage to do that even in the face of women.
• 1:12:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know it's not going to be popular.
• 1:12:11
  SPEAKER_02: But I think that's how ultimately the conversation continues to shift.
• 1:12:16
  SPEAKER_03: Well, it's tricky, man.
• 1:12:18
  SPEAKER_03: Because as black people, and that's the other thing, you're black...
• 1:12:24
  SPEAKER_03: there's a lot of different types of black people out there, man.
• 1:12:27
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you got black people of direct Caribbean descent.
• 1:12:29
  SPEAKER_03: You got black people of Central American descent.
• 1:12:32
  SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of the Colombian people are black.
• 1:12:34
  I mean,
• 1:12:34
  there's so many different types of black people,
• 1:12:36
  African-Americans,
• 1:12:37
  of course.
• 1:12:38
  SPEAKER_03: So sometimes within the black community,
• 1:12:41
  SPEAKER_03: we get caught up trying to be like,
• 1:12:44
  SPEAKER_03: oh,
• 1:12:44
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 1:12:44
  SPEAKER_03: you ain't black.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_03: Bro, we black.
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_03: Stop this shit.
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_03: Anyway, but as black people, it becomes...
• 1:12:53
  SPEAKER_03: Very frustrating because at a certain point,
• 1:12:58
  SPEAKER_03: if you keep talking about history,
• 1:13:00
  it's like the tables get turned on you and people want to shut
• 1:13:05
  you off and say,
• 1:13:06
  SPEAKER_03: basically,
• 1:13:07
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 1:13:07
  SPEAKER_03: stop complaining.
• 1:13:08
  SPEAKER_03: Get over it.
• 1:13:09
  SPEAKER_03: Get on with it.
• 1:13:10
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 1:13:10
  SPEAKER_03: I had to talk with this dude from New Zealand.
• 1:13:13
  SPEAKER_03: He's not even going to get into specifics of, again, just whatever.
• 1:13:19
  SPEAKER_03: You know, brother, if you listen in, brother, it is what it is.
• 1:13:21
  SPEAKER_03: You were there too.
• 1:13:22
  SPEAKER_03: And,
• 1:13:23
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:13:23
  SPEAKER_03: he didn't understand what me and this other dude was talking,
• 1:13:26
  SPEAKER_03: white American,
• 1:13:28
  SPEAKER_03: open-minded white American,
• 1:13:29
  SPEAKER_03: great guy.
• 1:13:29
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we were talking about this very issue, colonial stuff.
• 1:13:34
  And the dude from New Zealand was like,
• 1:13:35
  why the fuck are y'all talking about this?
• 1:13:37
  And I was like,
• 1:13:39
  well,
• 1:13:39
  I was just,
• 1:13:39
  you know,
• 1:13:40
  this is my roots,
• 1:13:42
  my ancestry.
• 1:13:44
  SPEAKER_03: Our conversation just went this way.
• 1:13:45
  SPEAKER_03: He's like,
• 1:13:46
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:13:46
  SPEAKER_03: in New Zealand,
• 1:13:47
  SPEAKER_03: we don't have this,
• 1:13:48
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 1:13:49
  SPEAKER_03: we're just all from New Zealand and,
• 1:13:50
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:13:50
  SPEAKER_03: we just move forward.
• 1:13:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, okay, that's cool for you.
• 1:13:54
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm glad that's what y'all do.
• 1:13:55
  SPEAKER_03: But here we honor our roots and our past.
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_03: Like, it's very important because...
• 1:14:00
  Our whole economic infrastructure was built on the back of slaves,
• 1:14:05
  enslaved people.
• 1:14:06
  And,
• 1:14:06
  you know,
• 1:14:07
  we are often overlooked when it comes to being able to prosper
• 1:14:10
  in this country.
• 1:14:11
  SPEAKER_03: We've been set up for complete failure.
• 1:14:14
  Oh,
• 1:14:14
  you know,
• 1:14:14
  so it's it's after a while when you keep talking about this as
• 1:14:18
  a black person.
• 1:14:21
  I just feel like the system is continuing to turn its screw
• 1:14:26
  against our...
• 1:14:29
  SPEAKER_03: Plight is one word,
• 1:14:30
  SPEAKER_03: but it's like...
• 1:14:33
  How could you not see how detrimental slavery was for people
• 1:14:39
  and how our families
• 1:14:41
  SPEAKER_03: have been completely fucked over by this government in this country?
• 1:14:46
  SPEAKER_03: And how could people in this day and age really just,
• 1:14:49
  SPEAKER_03: oh,
• 1:14:49
  SPEAKER_03: they're lazy or they need to work harder or stop complaining?
• 1:14:52
  SPEAKER_03: This shit starts to pop up.
• 1:14:54
  SPEAKER_03: You know, oh, you're just complaining.
• 1:14:57
  SPEAKER_03: Just get on with it.
• 1:14:58
  SPEAKER_03: It happened.
• 1:14:59
  SPEAKER_03: Move on.
• 1:15:00
  SPEAKER_03: And it's just,
• 1:15:01
  SPEAKER_03: I'm at the point where I'm like,
• 1:15:05
  SPEAKER_03: there's like a hard right or a hard left that I can take.
• 1:15:08
  SPEAKER_03: You know, is the hard right, are you doubling down?
• 1:15:12
  SPEAKER_03: Are you going to continue beating it, beating the drum?
• 1:15:15
  SPEAKER_03: You know, or...
• 1:15:18
  SPEAKER_03: Do you play the game a little more?
• 1:15:20
  SPEAKER_03: Lean into more?
• 1:15:21
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, let's bake.
• 1:15:22
  SPEAKER_03: Hey guys, let me show you how to bake bran muffins today.
• 1:15:27
  SPEAKER_03: I think they're really great.
• 1:15:28
  SPEAKER_03: I've got a couple new cookie recipes that I want to, you know, so it's,
• 1:15:36
  SPEAKER_03: Bro,
• 1:15:36
  SPEAKER_03: I don't even...
• 1:15:37
  SPEAKER_03: Honestly,
• 1:15:38
  SPEAKER_03: this book was traumatic to me because it continued to force...
• 1:15:43
  SPEAKER_03: It was.
• 1:15:44
  SPEAKER_03: It forced me to read so much about how Swiss people,
• 1:15:49
  Swiss wealth was built because they built the ships that took
• 1:15:56
  people from Africa...
• 1:15:58
  SPEAKER_03: And enslave them.
• 1:16:00
  SPEAKER_03: The Swiss money funded that.
• 1:16:02
  SPEAKER_03: There's so many things you start to read.
• 1:16:05
  SPEAKER_03: And then on the back end, people are like, oh, well, you're lazy.
• 1:16:09
  SPEAKER_03: You just need to work harder.
• 1:16:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, no, I'm not lazy.
• 1:16:11
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not lazy.
• 1:16:12
  SPEAKER_03: Your ancestors just had everything fucking set up.
• 1:16:16
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 1:16:18
  SPEAKER_03: What are you talking about, Lazy?
• 1:16:21
  SPEAKER_03: It's difficult,
• 1:16:22
  SPEAKER_03: man,
• 1:16:23
  to continue to think about and talk about these issues and also
• 1:16:27
  apply them into content.
• 1:16:31
  SPEAKER_03: Content.
• 1:16:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's already dehumanizing enough to call it content.
• 1:16:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's not even like writing or art or whatever.
• 1:16:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's just it becomes...
• 1:16:45
  People are selective about what trauma deserves attention and
• 1:16:52
  what history is going to be told.
• 1:16:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm telling you right now,
• 1:16:56
  it's going to be interesting to watch how this all unfolds
• 1:16:59
  because I don't know.
• 1:17:00
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 1:17:04
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know either.
• 1:17:06
  SPEAKER_02: But I think you talking about it whenever you can is a good thing.
• 1:17:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I think...
• 1:17:15
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's all we can do is just fucking acknowledge it.
• 1:17:19
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think you were even that,
• 1:17:21
  SPEAKER_02: like in the book,
• 1:17:21
  SPEAKER_02: you're even that aggressive about it in any way.
• 1:17:25
  SPEAKER_02: You're basically just acknowledging it.
• 1:17:29
  SPEAKER_02: These things, wheat and sugar, exist because of these awful things.
• 1:17:34
  It doesn't mean I'm not going to make this fucking book or
• 1:17:37
  enjoy these breads,
• 1:17:38
  SPEAKER_02: but how can you not acknowledge that?
• 1:17:42
  SPEAKER_03: I agree with you, man.
• 1:17:44
  SPEAKER_03: Let me say this.
• 1:17:45
  SPEAKER_03: In a lot of these best of cookbook lists that happened this fall,
• 1:17:52
  SPEAKER_03: the only one I made has a black editor-in-chief.
• 1:17:56
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah?
• 1:17:59
  SPEAKER_03: Just so you know.
• 1:18:02
  SPEAKER_03: Just so you know.
• 1:18:02
  SPEAKER_03: I'll just leave it at that.
• 1:18:06
  SPEAKER_03: Whatever.
• 1:18:07
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 1:18:08
  SPEAKER_03: Coincidence?
• 1:18:09
  SPEAKER_03: Fuck it.
• 1:18:10
  SPEAKER_03: You know, so it is what it is.
• 1:18:12
  SPEAKER_00: But do you find yourself talking less and less about that?
• 1:18:16
  And those are just like internal conversations you have and
• 1:18:21
  debates and obviously
• 1:18:22
  SPEAKER_00: stress and tension and,
• 1:18:24
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:18:25
  SPEAKER_00: but you are still determined to...
• 1:18:29
  SPEAKER_00: Just keep doing it.
• 1:18:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, of course.
• 1:18:33
  SPEAKER_03: In the lead up to the book in the past four years,
• 1:18:36
  100% it has been something that I'm very vocal about in terms
• 1:18:42
  of just preserving
• 1:18:45
  SPEAKER_03: history and recounting history and understanding history.
• 1:18:51
  SPEAKER_03: I'm big into that.
• 1:18:52
  SPEAKER_03: I'm still very big into that.
• 1:18:55
  SPEAKER_03: I'm at a point where I don't know
• 1:18:58
  I don't know what my approach is beyond this book and beyond
• 1:19:03
  having talked about
• 1:19:04
  SPEAKER_03: what I wrote in this book because it's one thing.
• 1:19:10
  SPEAKER_03: You meet me in person, this is most likely what I will talk about.
• 1:19:13
  SPEAKER_03: I will somehow get to this.
• 1:19:15
  SPEAKER_03: We'll be eating food.
• 1:19:16
  SPEAKER_03: I'll find my way.
• 1:19:18
  SPEAKER_03: I'll find my way to this.
• 1:19:20
  SPEAKER_03: In terms of the content I want to share,
• 1:19:23
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 1:19:24
  SPEAKER_03: I'm posting videos about sourdough starter and it's performing great.
• 1:19:30
  SPEAKER_03: Do I need to complicate things right now?
• 1:19:32
  SPEAKER_00: At the end of the day, I use social media as a tool
• 1:19:41
  SPEAKER_03: The only reason I'm on it,
• 1:19:42
  the only reason I've ever been on it in reality was as a tool
• 1:19:45
  to show people how to
• 1:19:46
  SPEAKER_03: bake shit.
• 1:19:47
  It's not it's never been beyond this particular issue of my
• 1:19:53
  heritage and ancestry
• 1:19:54
  SPEAKER_03: and all that kind of thing.
• 1:19:55
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not someone that's going to be vocal about anything else.
• 1:19:59
  There's there's you're not going to find any sort of commentary
• 1:20:02
  about anything
• 1:20:03
  SPEAKER_03: going on in the world ever on my page because I didn't.
• 1:20:06
  get on the internet to do that i don't i personally just don't
• 1:20:10
  believe in get being
• 1:20:11
  on the internet and talking shit to people in comments over
• 1:20:15
  some issue they
• 1:20:15
  disagree with because that's the worst way yeah it's just not
• 1:20:19
  my thing i'm so i'm
• 1:20:20
  like i think i love the idea of just kind of getting back to
• 1:20:23
  the basics using
• 1:20:24
  continuing to use it as a tool that i that i knew it for which
• 1:20:28
  was here's how you
• 1:20:29
  SPEAKER_03: make
• 1:20:29
  SPEAKER_03: this kind of sourdough starter, bro.
• 1:20:31
  SPEAKER_03: Here's how you make this kind of pizza, bro.
• 1:20:32
  SPEAKER_03: Here's the flour I use.
• 1:20:34
  That's the core of my work at the end of the day is just
• 1:20:37
  showing people simple shit
• 1:20:38
  SPEAKER_03: to do in their kitchen for baking.
• 1:20:42
  SPEAKER_03: I'm definitely there right now.
• 1:20:44
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe just like
• 1:20:46
  SPEAKER_03: from an output perspective,
• 1:20:48
  giving myself a breather from having to put myself out there
• 1:20:51
  all the time and be like,
• 1:20:52
  SPEAKER_03: and you know,
• 1:20:53
  SPEAKER_03: woe is me,
• 1:20:54
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:20:55
  SPEAKER_03: fucking that,
• 1:20:56
  SPEAKER_03: that sucked back,
• 1:20:57
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:20:57
  SPEAKER_03: because I think there's a lot of guilt that comes with it.
• 1:20:59
  SPEAKER_03: People of European heritage will feel guilty when they read it.
• 1:21:03
  SPEAKER_03: They get tired of reading it.
• 1:21:04
  SPEAKER_03: So they'll fucking unfollow me or mute me.
• 1:21:06
  SPEAKER_03: They're like this dude, bro.
• 1:21:08
  SPEAKER_03: I get it, bro.
• 1:21:08
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sorry that my ancestors fucked yours over.
• 1:21:11
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going to stop.
• 1:21:11
  SPEAKER_03: I'm stopping consuming this.
• 1:21:14
  SPEAKER_03: Whatever, I mean, it is what it is.
• 1:21:16
  SPEAKER_03: I don't blame them.
• 1:21:18
  SPEAKER_03: My wife is white.
• 1:21:19
  SPEAKER_03: She's Irish and Spanish and Irish heritage.
• 1:21:23
  SPEAKER_03: She loves this shit, though.
• 1:21:24
  SPEAKER_03: She loves this shit, right?
• 1:21:25
  SPEAKER_03: But, you know, at a certain point,
• 1:21:28
  It's giving myself time to heal from the process of making the
• 1:21:32
  book and digesting
• 1:21:33
  all of this information and also just getting back to the core
• 1:21:35
  of my work,
• 1:21:36
  SPEAKER_03: which is like,
• 1:21:36
  SPEAKER_03: yo,
• 1:21:37
  SPEAKER_03: let's bake,
• 1:21:37
  SPEAKER_03: bro.
• 1:21:37
  SPEAKER_03: Let's bake.
• 1:21:38
  SPEAKER_03: Let's bake really dope stuff.
• 1:21:40
  SPEAKER_03: That's how I'm starting the year.
• 1:21:41
  I think ultimately that's the important thing,
• 1:21:45
  you know,
• 1:21:45
  to share the love about baking and
• 1:21:50
  SPEAKER_02: as long as that stuff isn't erased, it's there.
• 1:21:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's always there for those who are willing to... Yeah, it's printed.
• 1:22:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's printed.
• 1:22:03
  SPEAKER_03: It's on the shelf.
• 1:22:04
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's not going anywhere.
• 1:22:06
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not saying...
• 1:22:08
  I'm always going to be me and I'm always going to talk about
• 1:22:10
  the shit I want to
• 1:22:11
  SPEAKER_03: talk about.
• 1:22:11
  SPEAKER_03: But again, the world is bigger than...
• 1:22:17
  SPEAKER_03: me.
• 1:22:18
  SPEAKER_03: That's the other thing.
• 1:22:19
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just getting old.
• 1:22:21
  SPEAKER_03: The world's a big place.
• 1:22:22
  SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of stuff going on in the world.
• 1:22:23
  There's a lot of stuff that every single person feels very
• 1:22:28
  emotional about.
• 1:22:29
  SPEAKER_03: Every individual person on this whole planet has something that
• 1:22:33
  SPEAKER_03: They're very passionate about.
• 1:22:35
  And oftentimes most people don't give a shit about what you're
• 1:22:38
  passionate about.
• 1:22:39
  SPEAKER_03: People don't really care about each other anymore.
• 1:22:42
  SPEAKER_03: In my opinion, it's become a very, very unusual way to exist.
• 1:22:47
  SPEAKER_03: That's being amplified by social media tools, AI and our president.
• 1:22:54
  And I don't know,
• 1:22:55
  man,
• 1:22:56
  it's just,
• 1:22:56
  I think going back to the basics,
• 1:23:00
  it feels right to me.
• 1:23:02
  But I also think it's,
• 1:23:03
  I mean,
• 1:23:04
  the more we interact with media and digital language,
• 1:23:08
  I think we are learning to know what is worth expressing to
• 1:23:13
  these channels and what
• 1:23:14
  SPEAKER_00: is worth discussing in person.
• 1:23:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:23:18
  Honestly,
• 1:23:18
  I think person to person,
• 1:23:20
  people really do care about each other.
• 1:23:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's so different when...
• 1:23:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 1:23:25
  SPEAKER_00: the same thing you read in a text,
• 1:23:28
  SPEAKER_00: even if it's Instagram or something else.
• 1:23:30
  And if you say the same to a person in person,
• 1:23:33
  the reaction might be different.
• 1:23:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's just...
• 1:23:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 1:23:36
  there are things that are not worth just because I don't know
• 1:23:40
  what text has or when
• 1:23:42
  SPEAKER_00: people not having the tone or something that makes it different.
• 1:23:47
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe reels.
• 1:23:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 1:23:49
  But I think it's a matter of nuancing those comments and
• 1:23:56
  definitely not shut up in person.
• 1:23:59
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 1:24:01
  SPEAKER_03: I was just going to say that,
• 1:24:03
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 1:24:03
  SPEAKER_03: you're,
• 1:24:03
  SPEAKER_03: you hit the nail on the head and like it,
• 1:24:06
  SPEAKER_03: I,
• 1:24:06
  SPEAKER_03: the other day sat down and I was like,
• 1:24:10
  SPEAKER_03: how many people do I talk to in person meaningfully?
• 1:24:17
  SPEAKER_03: And the answer is like 10, like there's probably 10 people that,
• 1:24:24
  that I have the chance to have meaningful conversations with,
• 1:24:28
  let's just say in the past year.
• 1:24:30
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's like my wife, my sister, my mom, my brother.
• 1:24:38
  It goes back to the basics because there's not that much
• 1:24:42
  meaningful connection happening,
• 1:24:44
  SPEAKER_03: in my opinion,
• 1:24:45
  SPEAKER_03: on social media.
• 1:24:46
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's forced me to think about
• 1:24:51
  SPEAKER_03: what is meaningful connection and how do you find it in life?
• 1:24:54
  Which is why I'm moving out of the city for sure to try to just
• 1:24:58
  unplug from this is
• 1:25:00
  SPEAKER_03: a common shit.
• 1:25:01
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, unplug from the matrix.
• 1:25:02
  SPEAKER_03: That's what we say, right?
• 1:25:03
  SPEAKER_03: Unplug from unplug from these ideas that have,
• 1:25:07
  that are starting to intensify to a point where I'm a little
• 1:25:11
  bit uncertain of how
• 1:25:14
  SPEAKER_03: it's supposed to go down.
• 1:25:15
  SPEAKER_03: But I think social media is incredible.
• 1:25:17
  SPEAKER_03: Of course.
• 1:25:18
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I've, I've,
• 1:25:20
  SPEAKER_03: I work on, I use it for work every day.
• 1:25:22
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I'm not like,
• 1:25:27
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not going to be done with it.
• 1:25:29
  I think it's a very critical part of what we do because that's
• 1:25:32
  how we get our message out there.
• 1:25:35
  Getting on Substack myself has been awesome because the people
• 1:25:38
  that subscribe to
• 1:25:40
  SPEAKER_03: the Substack,
• 1:25:40
  SPEAKER_03: they're there for a recipe.
• 1:25:42
  SPEAKER_03: They're not there for any other shit.
• 1:25:44
  SPEAKER_03: They're there because they want the recipes.
• 1:25:46
  SPEAKER_03: That's it.
• 1:25:48
  SPEAKER_03: That's why they're on it.
• 1:25:50
  Someone that follows me on Instagram is not on Instagram
• 1:25:53
  specifically for me or for
• 1:25:56
  SPEAKER_03: My recipes, they're just on Instagram.
• 1:25:57
  SPEAKER_03: So I do love the shift to the newsletter,
• 1:26:01
  SPEAKER_03: the writing approach where you can actually just focus on the core.
• 1:26:05
  As you know,
• 1:26:06
  obviously y'all,
• 1:26:07
  y'all,
• 1:26:07
  you know,
• 1:26:08
  it's,
• 1:26:08
  it's,
• 1:26:08
  it's great,
• 1:26:09
  right?
• 1:26:10
  SPEAKER_03: It's a true community.
• 1:26:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:26:11
  SPEAKER_02: That's the thing.
• 1:26:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, and what I appreciate is things don't have to go viral.
• 1:26:17
  SPEAKER_02: You don't need a billion fucking views to make something work.
• 1:26:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's just, you're writing for those people that are already subscribed.
• 1:26:25
  SPEAKER_02: and hopefully you get a few more,
• 1:26:27
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:26:27
  SPEAKER_02: here and there,
• 1:26:27
  SPEAKER_02: but you're writing for that community.
• 1:26:30
  SPEAKER_02: You're not trying to impress everyone in the world.
• 1:26:33
  SPEAKER_02: You can fucking be yourself and,
• 1:26:36
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:26:36
  SPEAKER_02: they like you or they don't,
• 1:26:38
  SPEAKER_02: but if they stay there,
• 1:26:39
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:26:40
  SPEAKER_02: hopefully they appreciate what you're doing and,
• 1:26:43
  SPEAKER_02: and read,
• 1:26:44
  SPEAKER_02: but it's a different approach.
• 1:26:46
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, it's, it, it's hard to,
• 1:26:50
  And think of writing and creating content,
• 1:26:53
  for lack of a better word,
• 1:26:55
  in that way.
• 1:26:57
  SPEAKER_02: Because we've been trained over the last 10 years.
• 1:26:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, you need fucking everyone to look at this.
• 1:27:01
  SPEAKER_02: You need reactions and likes and...
• 1:27:04
  SPEAKER_02: All this stuff.
• 1:27:05
  But it's like I know some of the best things I write on
• 1:27:09
  Substack that people love the best.
• 1:27:11
  SPEAKER_02: They don't even like it or share it or it has nothing to do with that.
• 1:27:16
  They just all have a conversation with somebody later on where
• 1:27:19
  they will talk about something.
• 1:27:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, yeah, it would have been nice if you fucking like that.
• 1:27:24
  But I'm glad you fucking read the whole 2,000-word essay that I
• 1:27:30
  just wrote.
• 1:27:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:27:32
  SPEAKER_02: And you didn't just like,
• 1:27:34
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:27:35
  SPEAKER_02: like something and scroll up on Instagram,
• 1:27:37
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:27:37
  SPEAKER_02: or whatever.
• 1:27:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, man.
• 1:27:39
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like they're invested a little bit.
• 1:27:41
  SPEAKER_02: They can go a little bit deeper.
• 1:27:43
  SPEAKER_02: So to get that,
• 1:27:44
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:27:44
  SPEAKER_02: recipe for to stockers or whatever,
• 1:27:46
  SPEAKER_02: they do have to,
• 1:27:48
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:27:49
  SPEAKER_02: maybe,
• 1:27:50
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:27:50
  SPEAKER_02: read a sentence about colonialism or just like an acknowledgement of it,
• 1:27:55
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:27:55
  SPEAKER_02: and I think that's good.
• 1:27:58
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's a positive thing.
• 1:28:00
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not saying Substack's the way,
• 1:28:02
  SPEAKER_02: but I know that Substack doesn't own my subscriber list of content,
• 1:28:07
  so I can fucking take it elsewhere when eventually they do fuck
• 1:28:10
  up and get bought
• 1:28:12
  SPEAKER_02: by fucking whoever.
• 1:28:13
  SPEAKER_03: That's the thing, right?
• 1:28:17
  SPEAKER_03: The subscribers,
• 1:28:20
  SPEAKER_03: the people that actually chose to subscribe to your work,
• 1:28:26
  SPEAKER_03: I think they're the most important people
• 1:28:29
  out there right now they're the they're they're in my opinion
• 1:28:33
  as a as an author as
• 1:28:34
  someone who's um uh you know creating recipes and that kind of
• 1:28:38
  thing they're
• 1:28:39
  they're way more important than followers i'll take you know
• 1:28:42
  i'm saying like if in
• 1:28:43
  because because one day if these apps these other ones shut
• 1:28:46
  down or some or
• 1:28:47
  whatever like literally like tick tock literally is might shut
• 1:28:50
  down um what do you
• 1:28:52
  what what do you own what who do who do you who do you have
• 1:28:56
  within your network and
• 1:28:57
  SPEAKER_03: if you didn't build it um
• 1:29:00
  SPEAKER_03: But it's funny what you say.
• 1:29:02
  SPEAKER_03: I wouldn't be talking like this on a regular podcast, bro.
• 1:29:06
  I wouldn't be talking like this if I was on any of these
• 1:29:10
  popular podcasts,
• 1:29:11
  bro.
• 1:29:11
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I'm saying?
• 1:29:12
  SPEAKER_03: I'm talking like this.
• 1:29:13
  SPEAKER_02: We're definitely not popular, I can assure you.
• 1:29:16
  i i didn't i didn't i didn't mean i didn't mean like that no no
• 1:29:19
  no but like to be
• 1:29:20
  fair like like like like a like a like a main like like if i
• 1:29:24
  was on like a food
• 1:29:25
  five two because people don't want to hear this shit but anyone
• 1:29:30
  that's still
• 1:29:30
  listening right now is a real oat is a real motherfucker bro
• 1:29:34
  like if and the people
• 1:29:35
  SPEAKER_03: that are going to listen to this episode
• 1:29:38
  SPEAKER_03: are the people I want to talk to like this.
• 1:29:39
  SPEAKER_03: That's why I'm talking like this.
• 1:29:41
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I'm saying?
• 1:29:42
  So I think that's the interesting part about coming on with you
• 1:29:46
  here with New World
• 1:29:47
  SPEAKER_03: is I was like,
• 1:29:47
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going to just go talk real because I know the people that subscribe,
• 1:29:50
  SPEAKER_03: they don't want to hear some,
• 1:29:52
  SPEAKER_03: they don't want to hear the shit that I would say on like taste.
• 1:29:55
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 1:29:55
  SPEAKER_03: when I'm on taste,
• 1:29:56
  SPEAKER_03: it's like,
• 1:29:56
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 1:29:56
  SPEAKER_03: yeah,
• 1:29:57
  SPEAKER_03: I wrote pane dulce,
• 1:29:58
  SPEAKER_03: dulce,
• 1:29:59
  SPEAKER_03: because it really,
• 1:30:00
  SPEAKER_03: it was really in touch with my roots.
• 1:30:03
  SPEAKER_00: They're really,
• 1:30:03
  SPEAKER_03: they're really generic elevator pitch shit that I got to give to the,
• 1:30:06
  SPEAKER_03: to the,
• 1:30:07
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:30:08
  SPEAKER_03: like when I go on the Today Show,
• 1:30:09
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 1:30:10
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:30:10
  SPEAKER_03: I'm on like with Carson Daly.
• 1:30:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it was so Carson Daly.
• 1:30:13
  SPEAKER_03: It was funny.
• 1:30:13
  SPEAKER_03: I was doing Brigadeiros with him.
• 1:30:15
  SPEAKER_03: And, and he was like, he was like, oh, Brigadeiros.
• 1:30:18
  SPEAKER_03: Is this like, was something with the military happening?
• 1:30:20
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, I was like, pivot, pivot.
• 1:30:22
  SPEAKER_03: Don't do it.
• 1:30:22
  SPEAKER_03: Don't talk about this.
• 1:30:23
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, I literally said, I literally, you know, it's like live.
• 1:30:27
  And I was like,
• 1:30:27
  yeah,
• 1:30:28
  these were created when,
• 1:30:29
  you know,
• 1:30:29
  Brazil was going through some things.
• 1:30:31
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway,
• 1:30:31
  SPEAKER_03: so you mix the condensed milk with the,
• 1:30:34
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:30:35
  you got to keep it light and fresh when you're talking in the
• 1:30:40
  ultra mainstream.
• 1:30:41
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, you go too deep.
• 1:30:43
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know, man.
• 1:30:44
  SPEAKER_03: Am I being like...
• 1:30:47
  cynical am i being cynical like i think it's i think there you
• 1:30:52
  have to pick your
• 1:30:53
  battles and the places for these battles and i don't know
• 1:30:56
  that's it and i i think
• 1:30:58
  i've in terms of a business perspective i've probably always
• 1:31:02
  chosen the wrong uh
• 1:31:03
  path like i've always talked about things that weren't popular
• 1:31:08
  and that made people
• 1:31:09
  SPEAKER_02: uncomfortable i think and that's definitely not
• 1:31:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like a good career move, I would assume, like in the long term.
• 1:31:19
  But at the same time,
• 1:31:20
  it's like I can't think of doing at least what I do in the way
• 1:31:26
  I do it.
• 1:31:26
  SPEAKER_02: I can't think of another way to do it.
• 1:31:32
  And there is also a difference between maybe not saying much
• 1:31:37
  and or saying just generics,
• 1:31:40
  SPEAKER_00: as you said,
• 1:31:40
  SPEAKER_00: with,
• 1:31:41
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:31:41
  SPEAKER_00: Brazil and going to some issues.
• 1:31:45
  and that's different from approving what the other person is is
• 1:31:49
  saying and and and
• 1:31:51
  that i think is a huge difference and and a deal you know like
• 1:31:56
  a boundary like a
• 1:31:58
  SPEAKER_00: limit
• 1:31:59
  if you start if you see yourself which I don't think you are
• 1:32:04
  and I don't think Nick
• 1:32:05
  is and hopefully I'm not doing that either it's approving just
• 1:32:09
  with your silence or
• 1:32:12
  avoiding because that's when then I think values are
• 1:32:16
  compromised and I don't that's
• 1:32:18
  not worth it's not worth living that way at least not for me no
• 1:32:23
  not at all I think
• 1:32:26
  SPEAKER_02: you've done a really good job of
• 1:32:29
  SPEAKER_02: of carving the path in,
• 1:32:30
  SPEAKER_02: in like a good positive way with substance,
• 1:32:35
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:32:35
  SPEAKER_02: like as,
• 1:32:35
  SPEAKER_02: as we started off talking about bread and just like,
• 1:32:39
  SPEAKER_02: so technical and impersonal,
• 1:32:41
  SPEAKER_02: it just felt like a manual that I don't know,
• 1:32:45
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 1:32:46
  SPEAKER_02: and it was just so intimidating and,
• 1:32:49
  SPEAKER_02: but the way you do it,
• 1:32:50
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 1:32:50
  SPEAKER_02: as I said,
• 1:32:51
  SPEAKER_02: it feels personal.
• 1:32:52
  SPEAKER_02: It feels human.
• 1:32:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I like, I think food is ultimately, um,
• 1:32:57
  SPEAKER_02: you know, cooking at least is ultimately human.
• 1:33:02
  SPEAKER_03: I hope so.
• 1:33:03
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 1:33:03
  SPEAKER_02: you got,
• 1:33:03
  SPEAKER_03: you got,
• 1:33:04
  SPEAKER_03: you got people,
• 1:33:05
  SPEAKER_03: you got action Bronson with meta AI glasses,
• 1:33:07
  SPEAKER_03: making recipes and fucking posting videos about it.
• 1:33:10
  SPEAKER_03: So, I mean, it's like, is that cool?
• 1:33:12
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe that's cool though.
• 1:33:13
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 1:33:14
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think it's cool.
• 1:33:15
  I think it's I think it's it's like I think it's it's the it's
• 1:33:18
  the demise of it's
• 1:33:20
  SPEAKER_03: the demise of a proper cookbook,
• 1:33:23
  SPEAKER_03: the demise of a proper recipe creator,
• 1:33:28
  SPEAKER_03: because if you're basically saying.
• 1:33:32
  SPEAKER_03: Fuck anyone that can actually do the research to create recipes,
• 1:33:36
  SPEAKER_03: just put these glasses on and look at the ingredients,
• 1:33:38
  SPEAKER_03: it'll tell you what to do.
• 1:33:41
  SPEAKER_03: Like, that's some heavy shit.
• 1:33:44
  SPEAKER_03: some heavy shit.
• 1:33:45
  SPEAKER_02: I could see it being entertaining in some ways.
• 1:33:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like if you,
• 1:33:49
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:33:49
  SPEAKER_02: you could put on,
• 1:33:50
  SPEAKER_02: for on Audrey has glasses in the kitchen of El Bulli and,
• 1:33:54
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:33:55
  SPEAKER_02: 20 years ago.
• 1:33:55
  SPEAKER_02: And you're like, came to be, that could be cool.
• 1:33:59
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I think, but like creating recipes, I could see.
• 1:34:02
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's like, yeah, like that's the whole purpose of the cookbook.
• 1:34:06
  is that moment when you're in the kitchen and you look at these ingredients,
• 1:34:10
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:34:10
  SPEAKER_03: how I grew up was like,
• 1:34:12
  SPEAKER_03: oh,
• 1:34:12
  SPEAKER_03: man,
• 1:34:12
  SPEAKER_03: let me go get Alice Waters,
• 1:34:13
  SPEAKER_03: The Art of Simple Cooking,
• 1:34:14
  SPEAKER_03: because I know I could do something with the celery and this.
• 1:34:17
  SPEAKER_03: And then you find this, you know, and then you cook it.
• 1:34:19
  SPEAKER_03: And that's that's literally the whole.
• 1:34:20
  SPEAKER_03: You know, so when I see someone who makes cookbooks,
• 1:34:25
  doing a meta sponsorship post like that i'm like dang bro like
• 1:34:30
  you make cookbooks
• 1:34:30
  though like you what the fuck like like why why are you going
• 1:34:35
  to that and again i'm
• 1:34:36
  not saying it's like wrong i mean technology is technology i'm
• 1:34:40
  just i'm looking at
• 1:34:41
  it as like so i mean i could go on a software and just like not
• 1:34:46
  me obviously not me
• 1:34:49
  Anyone off the couch could go off of software right now and
• 1:34:52
  churn out a book,
• 1:34:53
  SPEAKER_03: really,
• 1:34:53
  SPEAKER_03: or a blog.
• 1:34:54
  SPEAKER_03: They could just pop in a prompt.
• 1:34:58
  SPEAKER_03: Hey,
• 1:34:58
  SPEAKER_03: make me a blog that has 10 cookie recipes,
• 1:35:01
  SPEAKER_03: 10 bread recipes,
• 1:35:03
  SPEAKER_03: and 10 brownie recipes,
• 1:35:05
  SPEAKER_03: and make sure that you use this ingredient.
• 1:35:06
  You can type all that shit into some shit,
• 1:35:08
  and it'll do that shit for you.
• 1:35:10
  SPEAKER_03: Isn't that crazy?
• 1:35:11
  SPEAKER_03: Isn't that crazy?
• 1:35:13
  SPEAKER_03: That shit is definitely happening right now.
• 1:35:16
  SPEAKER_02: For a long time, though, to be fair,
• 1:35:18
  Things have just been copied and pasted in a lot of writing,
• 1:35:24
  in a lot of shit on the internet.
• 1:35:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I think eventually,
• 1:35:28
  SPEAKER_02: hopefully,
• 1:35:30
  actual work with actual people behind it starts to be valued
• 1:35:36
  again in some way.
• 1:35:38
  SPEAKER_02: And just that shit that was copied and pasted already is now just AI.
• 1:35:43
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 1:35:45
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know either.
• 1:35:46
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know either.
• 1:35:48
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 1:35:49
  SPEAKER_03: You should title this episode, I don't know.
• 1:35:52
  SPEAKER_03: We don't know.
• 1:35:53
  SPEAKER_03: We don't know.
• 1:35:55
  SPEAKER_03: We don't know what we're talking about.
• 1:35:56
  SPEAKER_03: We don't know what.
• 1:35:58
  SPEAKER_03: We could talk all day about this shit.
• 1:36:02
  SPEAKER_03: And as we should,
• 1:36:03
  SPEAKER_03: as we should,
• 1:36:04
  SPEAKER_03: by the way,
• 1:36:04
  SPEAKER_03: because,
• 1:36:05
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:36:06
  this is I think the reason we're still talking right now is
• 1:36:09
  because we need to.
• 1:36:10
  SPEAKER_03: We need to.
• 1:36:12
  SPEAKER_03: It's not often.
• 1:36:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's important.
• 1:36:14
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, like, you know, it's not that I don't.
• 1:36:17
  SPEAKER_03: have friends or anything like that.
• 1:36:19
  SPEAKER_03: But, you know, everyone's so busy and all that kind of thing.
• 1:36:21
  SPEAKER_03: It's like,
• 1:36:22
  SPEAKER_03: sometimes I do feel like I'm just like stewing in these thoughts or,
• 1:36:26
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:36:26
  SPEAKER_03: like my wife and I or whatever,
• 1:36:28
  SPEAKER_03: we'll talk about it.
• 1:36:29
  SPEAKER_03: But like, I'm just like, man, I got to get this shit off my chest, bro.
• 1:36:34
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, good.
• 1:36:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thanks for coming here to do it.
• 1:36:37
  I'm always open to debate these uncomfortable things that
• 1:36:44
  aren't popular.
• 1:36:45
  SPEAKER_03: Let's keep it going.
• 1:36:47
  SPEAKER_03: Let's continue to talk.
• 1:36:49
  SPEAKER_03: Let's continue to work together and communicate and find ways to,
• 1:36:56
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know,
• 1:36:57
  SPEAKER_03: stay on this path we're on in a meaningful way.
• 1:36:59
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's pretty much all we can ask for.
• 1:37:01
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks, Brian.
• 1:37:04
  SPEAKER_00: Let me know when you are in L.A.
• 1:37:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to meet.
• 1:37:07
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 1:37:07
  SPEAKER_03: I will do.
• 1:37:08
  SPEAKER_03: And stay safe out there, yeah?
• 1:37:11
  SPEAKER_03: All right, y'all.
• 1:37:12
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, everyone, for listening.
• 1:37:14
  Check out Pan y Dulce at a bookstore near you and bake some
• 1:37:19
  bread with it.
• 1:37:21
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks to Brian Ford for coming on.
• 1:37:23
  Big thank you to my friend Pat Buzzard for providing the music
• 1:37:26
  to the show.
• 1:37:28
  Check us out on Substack,
• 1:37:29
  newworlder.com,
• 1:37:30
  or search for New Worlder on Substack.
• 1:37:33
  SPEAKER_02: Look for New Order on YouTube.
• 1:37:35
  SPEAKER_02: Find my books.
• 1:37:37
  SPEAKER_02: Find Brian's books.
• 1:37:38
  SPEAKER_02: Check out Julie's work.
• 1:37:41
  SPEAKER_02: You know how it is.
• 1:37:42
  SPEAKER_02: And please, like us, share us, things like that.
• 1:37:45
  SPEAKER_02: It really helps.
• 1:37:46
  SPEAKER_02: Peace.